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Ford C-Max & Fusion Hybrid Gas Mileage Lawsuits Combined

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94 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:59 PM

Where is it posted?

https://www.facebook...sionCmaxPoorMpg


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#22 OFFLINE   hermans

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:09 PM

By all means no, i have no proof your lying. im just asking you to post a video on how your achieving that mpg so others may try the same techniques.

Let's see now....you want me to drive and take a video? If I saw you doing that I would give you a ticket. Sorry you don't like your car that you don't even own anymore. You should feel relieved that you got out from under a car you didn't like.

 

Look, i don't have a dog in this fight..I like my car and I get great mileage. Sucks to be you. :cry:


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#23 OFFLINE   Fynack

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:06 PM

Let's see now....you want me to drive and take a video? If I saw you doing that I would give you a ticket. Sorry you don't like your car that you don't even own anymore. You should feel relieved that you got out from under a car you didn't like.

 

Look, i don't have a dog in this fight..I like my car and I get great mileage. Sucks to be you. :cry:

um, its called a tripod, or some duct tape. Obviously you cant drive with one hand then hold a video camera in the other and its clear that your not willing to help the people who "dont know how to drive this car" and are totally BSing about your numbers.


Edited by Fynack, 28 February 2013 - 04:07 PM.


#24 OFFLINE   Fynack

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:09 PM

Look, i don't have a dog in this fight..I like my car and I get great mileage. Sucks to be you. :cry:

 

No not anymore... this fusion POS is gone. Im just hanging around to help the others.



#25 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:54 PM

 Obviously you cant drive with one hand then hold a video camera in the other and its clear that your not willing to help the people who "dont know how to drive this car" and are totally BSing about your numbers.

Why not? I did.  Not hard at all. Just rest my elbow on my coffee mug, point the camera at the dash and drive. Dont need to be looking at the camera while doing it. Only one time did I need to look and that was to pan to the rear view mirror to record the Semi riding my ass.  

 

Then again, if I have to drive it like "one of those" Prius drivers and give the Fusion a bad rap, so be it, its how Ford told me I have to drive to get anywhere near what I expect out of it. 


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#26 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

Try this on for size. Fueleconomy.gov.  Out of 45 vehicles posted, the overall average is 39 MPG. 8 below EPA.   2012 Camry LE Hybrid, out of 13 cars, overall average is 40.4 rated 41.  2011 Fusion Hybrid, 11 car sample, 38 overall, rated 39. 

 

If so many people are happy, why are there 45 vehicles listed for the 13 Fusion, but so few for the other ones I listed? Could it be because the other ones are doing exactly as claimed?   You guys can defend Ford all you want, Ford gamed the test so they can market the car, and so far the majority of owners listed are 43 and under,  Only 3 are hitting near EPA, 8 are above, and they are mostly city drivers in warmer climes. that is not a very good percentage.  27 out of 45 owners are below 40 MPG. That is well over 50%. 

 

There are two types of owners who really use this site, those who brag, and those who are not getting what they think they should be getting. Out of those who are not, at least half have a legit beef. 

 

Lets go one step further, Cmax, 74 vehicles listed, 38.5 MPG average,   Prius V 19 vehicles listed, 42.5 average, EPA 42.       Ford will have a tough time defending this, the YMMV can only go so far, and I do believe Ford screwed themselves when they asked the EPA to revise their testing, which tells me Ford Gamed the system on this. 

I was hoping FORD would have explanation for your fouled spark plugs, that doesn't seem right.

 

FFH has been around for only 4months at most and winter months too. When summer time comes around your MPG's will go up 4-8mpg my testing has shown. When temps are in the 70's I can get EPA MPG's.

 

Sure would be interesting to test a "poor" MPG car on my test loop to compare to my car. Maybe not all cars are created equal.

 

On the lawsuit the only people that make money are lawyers and I haven't seen anything on both Forums that has done anything illegal.  So don't waste any of your money or time.IMO

 

So I guess it is up to us to figure out what is going on with the MPG's


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#27 OFFLINE   hermans

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:44 PM

um, its called a tripod, or some duct tape. Obviously you cant drive with one hand then hold a video camera in the other and its clear that your not willing to help the people who "dont know how to drive this car" and are totally BSing about your numbers.

All I did is read up on everything I could about how to drive a hybrid while waiting for my car.

 

Eat it clown.


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#28 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:41 PM

I have my doubts it will improve in warmer weather, only because I have been in 78* weather with it and didn't see 40.  I was down in Florida in December with it for a week and only time I saw it get reasonable miles was when I was in slow traffic.   Going to keep hopeful though, as I have been able to get 38 out of it the past 2 days. Still a little less than my other car, but better than it was.

 

I ordered the Husky liners for it today, and will order the hitch next month.


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#29 OFFLINE   Fynack

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 09:14 PM

All I did is read up on everything I could about how to drive a hybrid while waiting for my car.
 
Eat it clown.


Wow now were turning to insults like a 12 year old. Grow up and learn to respect yourself and the money you spend. Obviously you like to take it in the a$$ from ford. But I dont judge...keeping taking it



#30 OFFLINE   elle

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:00 PM

I have my doubts it will improve in warmer weather, only because I have been in 78* weather with it and didn't see 40.  I was down in Florida in December with it for a week and only time I saw it get reasonable miles was when I was in slow traffic.   Going to keep hopeful though, as I have been able to get 38 out of it the past 2 days. Still a little less than my other car, but better than it was.

 

I ordered the Husky liners for it today, and will order the hitch next month.

I have doubts about the warm weather, too.  My experience with the last hybrid I drove was that the A/C was also a real drain on mileage.  Since I live in a fairly warm climate, that's a bigger worry for me that the cold.  Problem here is the temperatures can vary so much that I might wake up with temps in the 40s and be running the heat in the morning and then have temps so hot in the afternoon that I'm running the A/C.  We have very few days here when I wouldn't be running something or other for climate.  



#31 OFFLINE   fusionTX

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:34 PM

Wow, this was a mature discussion on all sides. No happy talk here.:)
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#32 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:45 AM

Let's try to bring this discussion back to a more mature level. I think what causes division here is that not all Fusions are having the issues that acdii, Fynack, nmadole and others are having with their gas mileage. I think that most of us truly empathize with you guys who received defective cars. I can't imagine what I would do or how I would feel in your situation, it must be truly frustrating.

 

But what is frustrating for the rest of us here who are getting acceptable gas mileage and don't have defective cars is that you paint all the Fusion hybrids as being evil. Most of us are fine. There's a small group of you with issues, and those issues have be traced to cars that were built one specific week near the end of October/the beginning of November. It is a real shame that Ford won't admit that there is something wrong with cars from that week and compensate you guys accordingly. Maybe the only way for you to get resolution is a lawsuit, since the dealerships and Ford are not helping. But that doesn't mean that every person here is having the same issues that you are, or that we should all join you in suing Ford.

 

I think if everyone realizes that these few cars have a real problem with them, that it isn't just driving style or driver error, and if those of you with problems realize that the rest of us empathize and really feel bad about what's happening, it will help to keep the discussion civilized. We also have to realize that constant complaining about your mileage doesn't solve anything. What acdii has done with testing his car has helped to start to isolate where the defect is. But, to find the defect we need more information from those of you with issues and ideas from all of us of how to spot the issue. Maybe what it will take is for us to find the exact problem so that acdii and others can go to their dealer and show them exactly what the difference is between the poor MPG Fusions and the rest of the Fusions.

 

That would certainly be a more productive discussion than the name calling and constant complaining


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#33 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:19 AM

Some of the CMAX members are connecting Laptops to monitor ICE functions. If we compare a High MPG car to a Low MPG car under the same conditions there might be some info that would explain the difference. :) 


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#34 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:27 AM

Some of the CMAX members are connecting Laptops to monitor ICE functions. If we compare a High MPG car to a Low MPG car under the same conditions there might be some info that would explain the difference. :)

Can you link to some of those? I would really like to do that as well. The ScanGauge can only do so much and being able to record information is even better. 


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#35 OFFLINE   brcd131

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:56 AM

I appreciate all the information I get in this forum. I know it goes off into the weeds at times, and others get tired of hearing us complain about our poor MPGs but I pick up tidbits of info all the time that I can then take to the dealer and try to find a solution. The dealer is amazed a how much info I have, and I think at times he doesn't like it but that's the benefit of this forum - to exchange info.


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#36 OFFLINE   Fastronaut

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:06 PM

I appreciate all the information I get in this forum. I know it goes off into the weeds at times, and others get tired of hearing us complain about our poor MPGs but I pick up tidbits of info all the time that I can then take to the dealer and try to find a solution. The dealer is amazed a how much info I have, and I think at times he doesn't like it but that's the benefit of this forum - to exchange info.

That's what the value of Forums like this one provide.  My dealer is also amazed at what I know in relation to his limited view of the world. 


Edited by Fastronaut, 01 March 2013 - 12:08 PM.

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Ordered: 10/28/13 | VIN assigned: 10/31/13 | Window Sticker: 11/13/13 | Actual Build Date: 11/21/13 | In-Transit: 11/23/13 | ETA: 12/14/13 | Arrived at CSX Facility: 12/05/13 | Arrived at Dealer: 12/09/13 | Delivered: 12/11/13
 
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Ordered: 11/06/12 | VIN assigned: 2/28/13 | Window Sticker: 3/28/13 | Actual Build Date: 04/06/13 | In-Transit: 4/17/13 | ETA: 5/07/13 | Arrived at CSX Facility: 4/29/13 | Arrived at Dealer: 5/02/13 | Delivered: 5/03/13 | Tagged: 5/06/13 | Major Failure in for Service: 5/13/13 | Lemon Law Replacement Vehicle Received: 6/17/13

#37 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:51 PM

Mine just shakes his head and walks away.  I was even asked if I could come work for him. I dont know if it was in jest or what though! 


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#38 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:15 AM

I have been thinking about this all morning(I know, get a life right?), and what I came up with is this. It may seem frivolous to sue Ford over false advertisement, however, what if Ford really did game the system by programming the car to meet the EPA test dead on, when in real world driving it is unrealistic, and those numbers just cant be achieve by most drivers, and real world driving shows at least 20% losses to the EPA?  When other car companies program their cars to get the highest possible real world driving and then run the EPA test to get their numbers, like Toyota, and most drivers can obtain those numbers, buyers who have had Toyotas and then switch to a Ford and cant even get close to what those ratings are will not be happy.  There is a big discrepancy between what their EPA test are and what real world driving is.

 

For example, the Prius V, which is what Ford is targeting with their Cmax, out of a 19 car sample, the Fuel Economy website shows the overall real world average to be 42.5 MPG, while the EPA combined is 42.  When you then look at the Cmax, out of the 74 cars sampled, the real world average is 38.5 with EPA of 47. That is a huge difference, and really does make Ford look bad.

 

So my thoughts on this is, if Ford really did program to ace EPA when real world driving cant meet those numbers, then the lawsuit against them will expose how flawed the system is. Ford basically said that is the case when they insisted the EPA change the testing, in my mind they admitted to gaming the system right there.  What do we the consumer get out of this? More accurate real world EPA ratings, fewer false claims by car companies on their EPA ratings, and knowing when  you buy a car based on its gas mileage, that you can expect to see those numbers within 10%.

 

Even if there is no compensation for the false advertising claims, as long as the testing is changed to be more realistic to real world driving in a Hybrid, without games, then we all benefit from it.  That is my hope in how it all plays out.

 

Basically when you drive any of these cars conservatively, without extreme P&G measures like what has to be done in mine, you should be able to get within 10% of the EPA ratings, that is how the YMMV rule should be applied.  If you go to any Toyota dealer and test drive any of their hybrids, and drive it conservatively,  you will get within 10% if not right there. You can't say the same for the Fords.  On a test drive I have not been able to get 42 MPG in either the Cmax or the Fusion, yet on the test drives of both the Camry Hybrid and the Avalon hybrid, I was able to meet EPA on one, and come within 1.2 MPG of the other on the high end of EPA.  What I think will hurt Ford the most is lack of variance between their city and highway numbers, there is no gap between them as in other cars. If the sticker read more like 43 highway 47 city, that would seem more realistic in real world. When you look at 10-12 FFH sticker, 36 Highway, can be done, easily, 41 City Hell yes! 39 combined, Spot on.  It is best to under promise and over deliver than to over promise and under deliver.

 

Imagine how all you who are getting good MPG in yours would feel if the EPA numbers were closer to 42 MPG instead of 47?  You would be :happy feet: :rockon: :headspin:  Right?   Those of use who are stuck in the 30's wouldnt be complaining as much either, :baby: . But since no one has yet shown consistent 47 MPG in their Fuelly tags, when you look at Prius chat and see most owners tags show them right at or above the numbers, tells you , hmmm something isnt quite right.

 

So in the end, the result is a change in how Hybrids are tested to reflect actual real world driving, then its  a good thing, as it will benefit all of us.   Peace Out :victory:


Edited by acdii, 02 March 2013 - 10:18 AM.

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#39 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:23 AM

I know exactly what acdii is talking about, you excelerate then get into ev mode then drain the battery while slowly losing speed then excelerate and ev then drain again. Like driving 55 then drain to 30 then speed back up to 55 then drain again. Its ridiculous if thats what i have to do to get 40mpgs

Actually if you wanted to average 55mph P&G you accelerate to 58-60mph let off gas. EV should kick in at around 55mph depress accelerator to half way up blue arc to keep in EV to 50mph and then P&G again.  


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#40 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:29 AM

I have been thinking about this all morning(I know, get a life right?), and what I came up with is this. It may seem frivolous to sue Ford over false advertisement, however, what if Ford really did game the system by programming the car to meet the EPA test dead on, when in real world driving it is unrealistic, and those numbers just cant be achieve by most drivers, and real world driving shows at least 20% losses to the EPA?  When other car companies program their cars to get the highest possible real world driving and then run the EPA test to get their numbers, like Toyota, and most drivers can obtain those numbers, buyers who have had Toyotas and then switch to a Ford and cant even get close to what those ratings are will not be happy.  There is a big discrepancy between what their EPA test are and what real world driving is.

 

For example, the Prius V, which is what Ford is targeting with their Cmax, out of a 19 car sample, the Fuel Economy website shows the overall real world average to be 42.5 MPG, while the EPA combined is 42.  When you then look at the Cmax, out of the 74 cars sampled, the real world average is 38.5 with EPA of 47. That is a huge difference, and really does make Ford look bad.

 

So my thoughts on this is, if Ford really did program to ace EPA when real world driving cant meet those numbers, then the lawsuit against them will expose how flawed the system is. Ford basically said that is the case when they insisted the EPA change the testing, in my mind they admitted to gaming the system right there.  What do we the consumer get out of this? More accurate real world EPA ratings, fewer false claims by car companies on their EPA ratings, and knowing when  you buy a car based on its gas mileage, that you can expect to see those numbers within 10%.

 

Even if there is no compensation for the false advertising claims, as long as the testing is changed to be more realistic to real world driving in a Hybrid, without games, then we all benefit from it.  That is my hope in how it all plays out.

 

Basically when you drive any of these cars conservatively, without extreme P&G measures like what has to be done in mine, you should be able to get within 10% of the EPA ratings, that is how the YMMV rule should be applied.  If you go to any Toyota dealer and test drive any of their hybrids, and drive it conservatively,  you will get within 10% if not right there. You can't say the same for the Fords.  On a test drive I have not been able to get 42 MPG in either the Cmax or the Fusion, yet on the test drives of both the Camry Hybrid and the Avalon hybrid, I was able to meet EPA on one, and come within 1.2 MPG of the other on the high end of EPA.  What I think will hurt Ford the most is lack of variance between their city and highway numbers, there is no gap between them as in other cars. If the sticker read more like 43 highway 47 city, that would seem more realistic in real world. When you look at 10-12 FFH sticker, 36 Highway, can be done, easily, 41 City Hell yes! 39 combined, Spot on.  It is best to under promise and over deliver than to over promise and under deliver.

 

Imagine how all you who are getting good MPG in yours would feel if the EPA numbers were closer to 42 MPG instead of 47?  You would be :happy feet: :rockon: :headspin:  Right?   Those of use who are stuck in the 30's wouldnt be complaining as much either, :baby: . But since no one has yet shown consistent 47 MPG in their Fuelly tags, when you look at Prius chat and see most owners tags show them right at or above the numbers, tells you , hmmm something isnt quite right.

 

So in the end, the result is a change in how Hybrids are tested to reflect actual real world driving, then its  a good thing, as it will benefit all of us.   Peace Out :victory:

 

I agree, the point of any lawsuit should be to get the EPA to fix the broken tests, that's what I've been saying for months. If someone wants to make that the focus of their litigation then I will join you in that fight.

 

I want to see hybrids succeed. I buy hybrids because 1) it's good for the environment & 2) because I believe in the long run they are a good investment.

 

I don't know how many of you have read the book The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell, but I recommend it. Hybrids have not yet reached their tipping point yet to become popular with the masses, but I want to see that happen. I hope the same thing happens with PHEVs because I believe those are the future of cars; they're more practical than all electric vehicles or fuel cell cars or CNG cars. I fear, though, that the negativity here and a lack of change of the EPA tests will make hybrids take a step back in the court of public opinion and then we won't see them reach their tipping point. I think all of us here, as hybrid owners and enthusiasts, can agree that it is in our best interests to see hybrids succeed and become more popular. It is also in the best interests of our planet, and thus of all earth's inhabitants.

 

One thought that has crossed my mind is that maybe Ford doesn't want hybrids to succeed, maybe they're getting paid off by big oil, or they make less profit on hybrids, or something. I certainly hope that isn't true, though...


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