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Toyota Camry Hybrid vs FFH


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57 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:12 PM

You thinking of running for public office? 

oh Hell NO, I dont have that kind of gutter mentality(at least I HOPE I dont!)


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#42 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:34 PM

Congratulations!! I hope you get a good one :) Please share pics. You've waited a long time!

 

Where looks and features are concerned, there is no comparison. Fusion wins hands down.
The new Fusion still has to prove itself regarding reliability.
MPG-wise they are probably similar.

On my way to pick up my new Fusion right now, and just sold my 2007 Camry Hybrid for 12,000.
Looking forward to enjoying the Fusion. It really was love at first sight with the Fusion.

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#43 OFFLINE   terryb

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:01 PM

I was gonna try to get over to the dealer to meet him, but the weather turned to Crap and I decided a meet and greet wasn't worth the risk to me or the car with just enough rain to slick things up right at quitin' time.  So I'll have to wait on his pics too.


Edited by terryb, 10 April 2013 - 09:02 PM.

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Delivered 1/2/13
Ice Storm 2 / Moon Roof / Navi w MFT / Driver Assist / Luxury Pkg.
505A / leather Dune / rear view camera / park assist
Adaptive Cruise / remote Start / luxury wheels
 
 
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#44 OFFLINE   fusionTX

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:01 PM

Congratulations!! I hope you get a good one :) Please share pics. You've waited a long time!
 

Thanks. The car is awesome. Just got home a little while ago. It's cold and raining and windy in Houston right now, but the ride was so smooth and quiet. I must say it is a bit overwhelming at first with all the technology available.
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2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid Titanium[list]
[*]Sterling Gray, Navigation, Driver Assist, Adaptive Cruise Control
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#45 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:34 PM

Well did the rain sensing wipers work?


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#46 OFFLINE   B25Nut

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 02:41 PM

Houtex, who may be a member here but under a different name (thank you!), just posted this on Toyota Nation. More TCH owners are becoming jealous over there:

I bought the original 2007 TCH. Got one of the first ones made in Japan. Was a fantastic car, and I was ecstatic when I got it. Over the years, though, I stopped playing the hybrid games and trying to maximize MPGs . It was just too much work and not relaxing at all. During this phase I still managed 33 to 34 MPG with my hybrid-friendly daily commute.

Late last year, I decided it was time for a new car and the Fusion Hybrid was going to be it. I did visit Toyota, but thought the 2012 was too plain vanilla for me. I was ready for a change.

As I was waiting for my Fusion to arrive, I once again started driving my Camry to maximize mileage. I managed tanks of 40 to 38 for the last three tanks, so it still had it, if I was willing to put in the work.

Four weeks with my Fusion Titanium, and I am giddy. I absolutely love the car, and getting mid forties on my commute to the office is no work at all. On top of that I have so many features, that I have barely scratched the surface of what the car can do. Automatic bright lights, automatic wipers, blind side indicator, lane change assist, park assist, front and back sensors, memory seats, remote start, keypad on outside to lock and unlock door, ambient lighting, beautiful single color interior with soft finishes, and all kinds of electronic connections.

My Camry was the best car I ever owned. It never left me anywhere and was still going strong at 93,500 miles.

There are a few things the Fusion is lacking that my Camry had. One is a larger gas tank. My Camry had a 16 gallon tank, the fusion only 13.5. Also current trip MPG is not given until the end of the trip. i liked that with the Camry I could see how my mileage was progressing during the trip. Also, tank average is not computed for you in the Fusion, unless you manually set one of the trip computers or reset the Avg MPG. i also think the Fusion could take better advantage of the 8" screen to provide some nice mileage graphics.

All small items though which Ford can easily remedy.

Long term reliability is the only unknown right now with my Fusion, but I can tell you I've never felt so good about a new car . I look forward to every chance I get to drive it.

Edited by B25Nut, 09 May 2013 - 02:48 PM.

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#47 OFFLINE   dalesky

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 05:48 PM

Back in December I checked out the Toyota Nation site where they had started a thread on TCH vs FFH. Someone requested imput from a 2013 FFH owner, so I put my 2 cents in while trying to be repectful and impartial. Boy, did I get attacked! I was called a Troll and Fanboy and asked to go away. They even ate one of their own, a 2012 TCH owner that pointed out some areas where the FFH could possibly be better. One post stated the FFH looked like a beached whale.
They are now on their third thread on the subject http://www.toyotanat...y-hybrid-3.html
FusionTX made a great post over the weekend (thank you TX):
"There are many Toyota hybrid owners looking at Ford's offerings. I am one. I own a 2007 TCH and it has been a great car to date. However, to me the Fusion Hybrid offers so many more options than the Camry, and it's not a plain Jane car. It looks amazing. Regardless of how good my Camry has been, I feel the car has digressed in some ways. When I bought, you had a single leather color. Now you have a tri color seat, part of which is suede. Little things like that have made me move on. I'm sure it's still a high quality car, but it's no longer what I crave. I did consider the Avalon hybrid. Very nice interior, but in the end, the value in the Fusion, and its looks, made me take a chance on Ford.

We should all wish Ford success. Even if you decided on a Toyota over a Ford, it's no reason for ill will on Ford. If both have successful offerings, we all win."

A new poster, who ended up spending the extra money and getting the 2013 Avalon Hybrid, appeared today and makes some very good points.

This probably doesn't have to be said, but I sure we'll show respect here to any TCH owners that want to post.

 

Did anyone notice that if you sign up to be a member of the TCH forum you get to choose from a free membership, one for 29.95 and another one for even more!  what's up with that?

As much as I like the Avalon hybrid, after driving the TCH and the Avalon, the Avalon is way too big for us, and way too expensive, while the TCH is no larger than the FFH, and doesn't even close to as sharply as the FFH. Also, transitions to the gas engine are harsher, and it is just plain not as attractive, especially inside, plus the feature sets are much lower level than the FFH. Just my two bits.

Wait, one more thing- are TCH owners getting the amazing mileage that FFH owners are?


Edited by dalesky, 09 May 2013 - 05:51 PM.

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#48 OFFLINE   dalesky

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 06:05 PM

 

I agree. I really enjoy being in the FFH, I love driving it. My first car was a 1998 Chevy Lumina (junk), my next car was a 2000 Chrysler LHS (luxurious & huge, like the Titanic, but not really a fun car to drive), from there I had 3 Saabs. A 2002 Saab 9-3 2.0T, a 2001 9-5 Aero and a 2003 9-5 Aero. The Saabs were all drivers cars. In all three I really enjoyed cruising. If only they weren't so unreliable and not fuel efficient and we might have kept each of them for more than a couple years. Like the Saabs I find the new FFH to be a drivers car, a car that is enjoyable to drive and evokes that connection to the driver.

 

I can't wait for spring and warm weather to go and cruise around with my wife some sunny evening with the windows down and enjoying the silence of driving in EV mode!

 

 

2-5 also apply to us. The Camry's interior is much lower quality than the Fusion and the ICE/EV transition is not as good. I would add that the regenerative braking in the Camry is also not as well refined.

 

The Toyota/Ford dealer comment is another one too. When I went to the Toyota dealer and told the salesman that we were also looking at the Fusion Hybrid he immediately started bashing Ford and the FFH. He even went so far as to print out these sheets that Toyota has prepared to show how the TCH is superior. Unfortunately all of Toyota's documents were about how the TCH is superior to the 2012 FFH, a fact I would never have disputed. When I told him that he was bashing the wrong car he didn't seem to care and went on and on about how the FFH is worse. So I took the position of defending the FFH and telling him all the ways that the TCH is worse. He finally got the point and apologized at the end.

 

In contrast, the Ford dealer never said anything negative about the Camry. When we told the salesman that we were deciding between the TCH and the FFH he didn't turn negative. We even told him about some of the areas that we found the TCH to be superior to the Ford, which he acknowledged. His attitude was much better than the attitude at multiple Toyota dealers I talked to. Every Toyota dealer I had visited (3 different dealers in the area) all immediately took to bashing the FFH when it was mentioned. Sometimes even before I mentioned other cars we were considering they started bashing the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid, the FFH, etc without prompting. That did not leave a good impression.

 

 

I think Toyota will come back soon with some major improvements to the Camry, especially if their sales fall off in 2013 because of the new Ford hybrids. Reportedly the next gen Prius will get 75 MPG and have an AWD option. If that proves to be true I think we'll see major improvements from Ford in response...this is one of the benefits of capitalism...it yields competition, which benefits consumers 

In contrast, when I drove the Camry Hybrid the dealer had a lot of bad to say about Ford, especially the SYNC compared to the Toyota. I found the new Camry no where near as easy to drive, and in fact the handling felt numb. it did have good pickup, and the transitions were ok, but more noticeable to me.


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HyTi Ice storm

black leather
Sony sound
Voice Nav
Moonroof
Driver assist

1st tank 5-20-13


#49 OFFLINE   fusionTX

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:17 AM

Houtex, who may be a member here but under a different name


You think :)
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2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid Titanium[list]
[*]Sterling Gray, Navigation, Driver Assist, Adaptive Cruise Control
[*]Navigation, Driver Assist, Park Assist, Moonroof, Trunk Cargo Net

#50 OFFLINE   rico567

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:46 PM

I drove a 2012 Camry, rental for a week, and it was numb squared. And in spades. The FFH, by contrast, actually has HANDLING.

As an aside, when we visited the Ford dealer for our test drive, the salesman apologized for not knowing some things about hybrid tech, and stated that he wouldn't speak to any question he didn't have an answer for. He said "If we give out bad information the first time, we get a slap on the wrist. The second time, we're fired. The owner won't tolerate it."
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#51 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:03 PM

Now That is a smart way to do it.  If you dont know what your talking about, STFU. I like it! 


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#52 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 10:33 AM

I just watched a toyota commercial for the Camry. Safe, reliable, and they left out one other description BORING

:)


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#53 OFFLINE   bcrisp

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 10:59 PM

While I still await delivery of my '13 FFH, I'll be trading in my '05 Camry XLE (non-hybrid).  I picked it up in '08 with 32k miles and have since put another 103k on it.  To date, the Camry has easily been the best, most comfortable vehicle I've ever owned (I've had many).  In all the time I've owned it, I've only had to replace the rear catalytic converter other than routine maintenance.  I'm confidant I could ride this puppy well past 200k miles no problem.  We can all agree that Toyotas are reliable, if nothing else.  I'm certain we all share the hope that these technologically superior Fords develop such a reputation.

 

I did look at the TCH in 2012 and seriously considered it.  I figured I really didn't 'need' a new car at the time so I moved on.  I agree, the TCH is rather bland so there was nothing jumping out at me to prompt a purchase.  Then I was smitten with the '13 FFH story; it was too compelling to ignore.  I must admit that with all the time and miles I spend in a car (~20k/year), the 47/47/47 deserved my attention.  I normally get 30 - 33 in my Camry (non-hybrid).  After I placed my FFH order in November, my bubble burst when I read all the articles (Consumer Reports, other magazine editors, owners) indicating real-world numbers being much less.  In any event, I'm encouraged by all the good reports in this forum.  Back to my story, the technology offered in the Fords gives us a taste of amenities (primarily safety) that one normally sees in richer vehicles, like the Audi A6, at a working-class price.  While I still didn't 'need' a new vehicle in November, I placed my order, much due to the styling, comfort, room and technology. 

 

In fact, the Ford story was so compelling (one big reason is Ford didn't hold their hand out for our tax money like other Detroiters), I ordered a '13 Explorer Ltd for my wife the same day.  She took delivery in March while I still await my FFH.  Many people knock the MyTouch feature as being complicated. IMO, it's like anything else you're not used to:  given a little time to become familiar with its layout, it's fine.  I'd rather have those features than not; simplicity be damned.  I'm sure they had similar complaints when complicated smart phones replaced regular cell phones and bag phones (oh they're so complicated).  Remember VCRs? I don't know anyone that did NOT have one yet no one really knew how to work it with the remote.

 

The features that Ford offers make the TCH/FFH comparison rather easy (Ford wins, hands-down).  Styling is always subjective but the FFH is appealing to more people (see Ford's market share increase and Toyota's decrease).  I've read that FFH owners get better city mileage (vs TCH) while highway goers will see better in the Camry.  However, even compared to my '05 Camry with 30-33 mpg, the advertised 47... or the difference between TCH and FFH mileage isn't worth a $30+k payout in itself.  There has to be more to the story than mileage and the FFH owns that story on every count.

 

On a related note (I may start a thread if it's not here already), even with all the extra safety features on these FFH (and Explorers), the insurance companies are not decreasting premiums.  I called around to many providers and one let me vent a while about how the Explorer (and my yet-to-be-delivered FFH) has the BLIS, adaptive cruise, inflatable 2nd-row seatbelts, yadda-yadda-yadda, which makes them that much safer yet the insurance industry isn't offering any discounts.  She politely explained that until they get substantive data suggesting these vehicles are involved in that many less crashes, they won't be discounted for these features.  For now, they're more interested in whether your car has automatic seatbelts and essentially don't care about BLIS, adaptive cruise, etc.  The problem is, as she explained, that when they ARE involved in crashes, the expense of all that technology that needs to be replaced outweighs the lesser incidents (if lesser eventually shows up in the data).  Makes perfect sense but it's still hard to swallow.


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#54 OFFLINE   rico567

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 07:47 AM

<snip>

 

On a related note (I may start a thread if it's not here already), even with all the extra safety features on these FFH (and Explorers), the insurance companies are not decreasting premiums.  I called around to many providers and one let me vent a while about how the Explorer (and my yet-to-be-delivered FFH) has the BLIS, adaptive cruise, inflatable 2nd-row seatbelts, yadda-yadda-yadda, which makes them that much safer yet the insurance industry isn't offering any discounts.  She politely explained that until they get substantive data suggesting these vehicles are involved in that many less crashes, they won't be discounted for these features.  For now, they're more interested in whether your car has automatic seatbelts and essentially don't care about BLIS, adaptive cruise, etc.  The problem is, as she explained, that when they ARE involved in crashes, the expense of all that technology that needs to be replaced outweighs the lesser incidents (if lesser eventually shows up in the data).  Makes perfect sense but it's still hard to swallow.

 

 

 

What insurance companies do (or don't) is based entirely on what their actuaries cough up. All these "driver assist" features are too new to have yielded any crunchable numbers (however great the theory may sound) so they won't do it, period. The whole problem with statistics of various kinds is that they are politically unpalatable in other areas of our society, and so the facts are ignored.

 

We know a couple, both actuaries, who work for big insurance companies in Philadelphia. Over the past several decades, there have been several standing jokes among actuaries:

 

1. The mortgage / banking fiasco that precipitated the present economic malaise. Our friends say that people at every corporate leadership level and every level of government were told by actuaries throughout the 1990s and up until the debacle in 2008 that the way real estate investments were being done simply couldn't work, and when it ended it would be very bad. They were ignored, because the brave new world of U.S. politics decreed otherwise..

 

2. The system of defined-benefit pensions as practiced by the Fed and many state governments since the 1930's. Our friends say that any actuary they know will tell you that these are just government-mandated Ponzi schemes, and in fact these kinds of pensions are literally textbook examples of such when one is taking actuarial classes.

 

The reality is that we embrace the facts when we reap the benefits, and we reject them when they're unpleasant. It's because we're human, after all.


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#55 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:04 AM

Well at least a Ford with Cross Traffic Alert will be far less likely to get hit while backing out, unlike that Proven by VW in their commercial.  I really think VW screwed themselves with that  commercial, and if Ford is paying ANY attention to their competition, they will make a similar commercial touting the Cross Traffic and how it can AVOID getting hit while backing out of your driveway. 


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#56 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:30 PM

Insurance rates are based on past data and so far those features have not proven their value to insurance companies. The only features they really care about are ABS brakes, traction control and security alarms.


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#57 OFFLINE   dalesky

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:33 PM

Insurance rates are based on past data and so far those features have not proven their value to insurance companies. The only features they really care about are ABS brakes, traction control and security alarms.

My rates for the FFH are actually almost exactly the same as my 2004 Maxima!  I was kind of amazed actually. I think there are a number of reasons for this, not the least of which includes the many safety features compared to an older model.  In any even event, I was very pleased. The are actually in some areas less than my 2006 Mustang GT convert!


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HyTi Ice storm

black leather
Sony sound
Voice Nav
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1st tank 5-20-13


#58 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:55 PM

My rates for the FFH are actually almost exactly the same as my 2004 Maxima!  I was kind of amazed actually. I think there are a number of reasons for this, not the least of which includes the many safety features compared to an older model.  In any even event, I was very pleased. The are actually in some areas less than my 2006 Mustang GT convert!


Our FFH insurance is barely any more than we were paying for our 2006 Honda Accord Hybrid and is less than we were paying for our Saab 9-5 Aero

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