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Toyota Camry Hybrid vs FFH


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#21 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:46 PM

Camry does have BLIS. They dont have the other drivers assist features or ACC though. However, the Camry is easy to drive and does get its EPA numbers right off the lot, unlike the Fords.  Back in 09 though, the Camry was junk, I had one, and could not wait to get rid of it, then Ford came out with the Fusion and I was sold on it. However if Ford did not make the new Fusion, the new 2013 Camry is better than the older Fusion in some areas, equal in others. It will be easier to get over EPA than the older Fusion is. If I can hit 41.8 in a 30 minute test drive mixed city highway up hills and such, then getting 47 in it during the summer would be easy.

 

If the Camry did have ACC, then I would have traded off the Fusion weeks ago, but I didnt want to give up the extra options that  the Ford has that I really like about the car.  The Camry is priced about the same as the Fusion when you take away the options the Camry doesnt have.

 

However, with that being said, I am glad I didn't, it would be like going backwards, the Fusion is a sharp looking car, handles really well, and is comfortable.  It just needs a better stereo, and Will be much happier with it.


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#22 OFFLINE   fusionTX

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:58 PM

I'll post the same thing I did in the Camry forum.

Camrys are always a safe and reliable choice. That's why they are so popular, because while not the most exciting car, they deliver in most categories. The new Fusion Hybrid sets itself apart from the pack in looks and available technology, all at a reasonable price. Ford appears to have a real winner this year. If in time it proves to be as good as it appears, the whole mid-size car segment will benefit and we should see Toyota and other makes upping the ante, just as Ford did this year.
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[*]Sterling Gray, Navigation, Driver Assist, Adaptive Cruise Control
[*]Navigation, Driver Assist, Park Assist, Moonroof, Trunk Cargo Net

#23 OFFLINE   fusionTX

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:08 PM

I also don't understand the bitterness between brand fanatics. There is room for all of the different models, everyone wants something different in his/her own vehicles, and we should buy what most appeals to us. My dad drives a Prius, and I personally don't care for it, but he absolutely LOVES it. And even he admitted that my FFH was amazing.
The reasons I chose the FFH over the TCH is because:
1. Toyota does not offer the luxury options like BLIS, Adaptive Cruise Control, Lane Departure, etc.
2. TCH interior materials do not feel to me to be of the same quality as the FFH, especially the horrible faux wood on the console.
3. I see hundreds of Camrys every single day, both Hybrid and ICE. I like to have a vehicle that everyone doesn't have.
4. When I drove the TCH, the cutover between EV and ICE was very evident; the engine seemed to surge between formats.  The cutover in the FFH is practically imperceptible (unless the windows are open and the audible running of the gas engine is audible.)
5. The Ford dealer pointed out the positive points of the Fusion to try to sell it to me, while the Toyota dealer criticized the Fusion.
To anyone who purchased the Camry, I wish you good luck and hope you are happy with your choice. For me, the Fusion was the only choice.

I agree with everything you said except for 4. I own the original Camry Hybrid (2007). The EV to ICE transition is flawless. Of course, I can tell, but it's pretty close to imperceptible. I think Toyota and Ford both do a good job here.

My Camry has been the best car I have ever owned and it is still going strong. But after seven years with a Camry, the new models seem kind of stuck in the same mold. In fact the interior seems worse IMO. The leather seats are tri-color, which I do not like, and have a suede component, which I imagine is not very practical. i have high hopes for my Fusion and just hope it proves as reliable as my Camry has.
2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid Titanium[list]
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#24 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 09:17 AM

A TCH owner posted this on the TN site:
"Now you're making me feel even more buyer's remorse. I really liked the FFH but in the end, I chose the TCH because of proven technology and because the FFH's fuel economy ratings turned out to not be based in the real world. I'm not at all saying that the TCH is a bad car but I just don't feel a connection to it that I have with other cars."
I think most of us here feel an emotional connection with our FFH. The vast majority of TCH owners don't get that.

 

I agree. I really enjoy being in the FFH, I love driving it. My first car was a 1998 Chevy Lumina (junk), my next car was a 2000 Chrysler LHS (luxurious & huge, like the Titanic, but not really a fun car to drive), from there I had 3 Saabs. A 2002 Saab 9-3 2.0T, a 2001 9-5 Aero and a 2003 9-5 Aero. The Saabs were all drivers cars. In all three I really enjoyed cruising. If only they weren't so unreliable and not fuel efficient and we might have kept each of them for more than a couple years. Like the Saabs I find the new FFH to be a drivers car, a car that is enjoyable to drive and evokes that connection to the driver.

 

I can't wait for spring and warm weather to go and cruise around with my wife some sunny evening with the windows down and enjoying the silence of driving in EV mode!

 

I also don't understand the bitterness between brand fanatics. There is room for all of the different models, everyone wants something different in his/her own vehicles, and we should buy what most appeals to us. My dad drives a Prius, and I personally don't care for it, but he absolutely LOVES it. And even he admitted that my FFH was amazing.

The reasons I chose the FFH over the TCH is because:

2. TCH interior materials do not feel to me to be of the same quality as the FFH, especially the horrible faux wood on the console.

3. I see hundreds of Camrys every single day, both Hybrid and ICE. I like to have a vehicle that everyone doesn't have.

4. When I drove the TCH, the cutover between EV and ICE was very evident; the engine seemed to surge between formats.  The cutover in the FFH is practically imperceptible (unless the windows are open and the audible running of the gas engine is audible.)

5. The Ford dealer pointed out the positive points of the Fusion to try to sell it to me, while the Toyota dealer criticized the Fusion.

 

2-5 also apply to us. The Camry's interior is much lower quality than the Fusion and the ICE/EV transition is not as good. I would add that the regenerative braking in the Camry is also not as well refined.

 

The Toyota/Ford dealer comment is another one too. When I went to the Toyota dealer and told the salesman that we were also looking at the Fusion Hybrid he immediately started bashing Ford and the FFH. He even went so far as to print out these sheets that Toyota has prepared to show how the TCH is superior. Unfortunately all of Toyota's documents were about how the TCH is superior to the 2012 FFH, a fact I would never have disputed. When I told him that he was bashing the wrong car he didn't seem to care and went on and on about how the FFH is worse. So I took the position of defending the FFH and telling him all the ways that the TCH is worse. He finally got the point and apologized at the end.

 

In contrast, the Ford dealer never said anything negative about the Camry. When we told the salesman that we were deciding between the TCH and the FFH he didn't turn negative. We even told him about some of the areas that we found the TCH to be superior to the Ford, which he acknowledged. His attitude was much better than the attitude at multiple Toyota dealers I talked to. Every Toyota dealer I had visited (3 different dealers in the area) all immediately took to bashing the FFH when it was mentioned. Sometimes even before I mentioned other cars we were considering they started bashing the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid, the FFH, etc without prompting. That did not leave a good impression.

 

I'll post the same thing I did in the Camry forum.

Camrys are always a safe and reliable choice. That's why they are so popular, because while not the most exciting car, they deliver in most categories. The new Fusion Hybrid sets itself apart from the pack in looks and available technology, all at a reasonable price. Ford appears to have a real winner this year. If in time it proves to be as good as it appears, the whole mid-size car segment will benefit and we should see Toyota and other makes upping the ante, just as Ford did this year.

 

I think Toyota will come back soon with some major improvements to the Camry, especially if their sales fall off in 2013 because of the new Ford hybrids. Reportedly the next gen Prius will get 75 MPG and have an AWD option. If that proves to be true I think we'll see major improvements from Ford in response...this is one of the benefits of capitalism...it yields competition, which benefits consumers 


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#25 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 09:55 AM

The Toyota/Ford dealer comment is another one too. When I went to the Toyota dealer and told the salesman that we were also looking at the Fusion Hybrid he immediately started bashing Ford and the FFH. He even went so far as to print out these sheets that Toyota has prepared to show how the TCH is superior. Unfortunately all of Toyota's documents were about how the TCH is superior to the 2012 FFH, a fact I would never have disputed. When I told him that he was bashing the wrong car he didn't seem to care and went on and on about how the FFH is worse. So I took the position of defending the FFH and telling him all the ways that the TCH is worse. He finally got the point and apologized at the end.

The Toyota dealer I went to didn't bash Ford when he had a customer deciding between the Cmax and the Prius.  He did however explain that if you are looking to get good gas mileage, you wont get it in the Ford, but does acknowledge the fact the Fords are much better in the interior, power and handling department.  He likes the Cmax and Fusions, but he has to be truthful with customers, they dont get as good gas mileage as the Toyotas do.  When I talked with him about the differences between the Fusion and Camry, he was right up on with what Ford has to offer and pointed out what the Camry has over the Ford in several areas.  On the SE, the Camry has a better stereo in the XLE non JBL. Has a better navigation unit, has Pandora, iHeart, and a few others that MFT does not.  The 2013 is a much nicer car than the 2009 I had, its not as nice as the Fusion, it doesn't handle as well as the Fusion, but does handle better than the 09.  It does get better MPG right off the lot than the Fusion does too, so even if it doesn't have Adaptive cruise option, or lane keeping, or auto dim headlights, it is still a very strong competitor to the Fusion.  The fact it has a proven reliability record, and its record of hitting EPA numbers is what leads a lot of people to purchase the TCH over the FFH. 

 

IOW, the Toyota dealer I went to doesn't need to bash Ford to sell the Prius/Camry hybrids, they just point out the true facts and let the customer decide which one they would rather have.  It's these facts that can lead more people over to Toyota than to try a Ford, and unless Ford can address the unachievable EPA claims, they will lose sales to Toyota.   Lets face it, if a buyer is looking for a sedan that gets good gas mileage, he/she will test that particular claim right off the bat, and if they can hit that mark on a test drive in one car, but not the other, which one will be more likely purchased?   When I test drove the Cmax, and two Fusions none came close to the EPA claims, yet when I test drove both a Camry XLE Hybrid and an Avalon Hybrid, I hit the EPA marks in both. That right there is where Ford will have problems. All the flash and bling and toys in the world wont help when you advertise one thing, and cant deliver on it, and that is the reason people will be looking at the Hybrids in the first place. 


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#26 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:12 PM

The Toyota dealer I went to didn't bash Ford when he had a customer deciding between the Cmax and the Prius.  He did however explain that if you are looking to get good gas mileage, you wont get it in the Ford, but does acknowledge the fact the Fords are much better in the interior, power and handling department.  He likes the Cmax and Fusions, but he has to be truthful with customers, they dont get as good gas mileage as the Toyotas do.  When I talked with him about the differences between the Fusion and Camry, he was right up on with what Ford has to offer and pointed out what the Camry has over the Ford in several areas.  On the SE, the Camry has a better stereo in the XLE non JBL. Has a better navigation unit, has Pandora, iHeart, and a few others that MFT does not.  The 2013 is a much nicer car than the 2009 I had, its not as nice as the Fusion, it doesn't handle as well as the Fusion, but does handle better than the 09.  It does get better MPG right off the lot than the Fusion does too, so even if it doesn't have Adaptive cruise option, or lane keeping, or auto dim headlights, it is still a very strong competitor to the Fusion.  The fact it has a proven reliability record, and its record of hitting EPA numbers is what leads a lot of people to purchase the TCH over the FFH. 

 

IOW, the Toyota dealer I went to doesn't need to bash Ford to sell the Prius/Camry hybrids, they just point out the true facts and let the customer decide which one they would rather have.  It's these facts that can lead more people over to Toyota than to try a Ford, and unless Ford can address the unachievable EPA claims, they will lose sales to Toyota.   Lets face it, if a buyer is looking for a sedan that gets good gas mileage, he/she will test that particular claim right off the bat, and if they can hit that mark on a test drive in one car, but not the other, which one will be more likely purchased?   When I test drove the Cmax, and two Fusions none came close to the EPA claims, yet when I test drove both a Camry XLE Hybrid and an Avalon Hybrid, I hit the EPA marks in both. That right there is where Ford will have problems. All the flash and bling and toys in the world wont help when you advertise one thing, and cant deliver on it, and that is the reason people will be looking at the Hybrids in the first place. 

 

You hit on some very good points. We didn't think the Toyota's stereo was nicer, but I'll accept that. One of the other things that pushed us away from the Toyota is that their pricing is higher than Ford's pricing on the Fusion. With Toyota's organization of the option packages, to get leather & a sunroof we would have been forced to spend $3000 more than the Fusion for features we did not want (Navigation, big touch screen, back up camera, etc) and we still would have lacked back up sensors like the FFH has and we would have lacked all the hybrid info that the FFH provides.

 

As far as the mileage goes, we test drove a TCH and a FFH back in October in 50-60 degree weather and found that we did 46.5 MPG in the FFH in about 75% rural highway and 25% city driving and we did 44 MPG in the Camry in 20% highway and 80% city driving. Unfortunately in the Fusion we had a lot more highway driving because it came from a dealer that was 45 miles away. Thus we determined that in both cars our real world fuel economy would be equal. We did not factor fuel economy into our decision. We are getting just over 40 MPG in our FFH which we received in the dead of winter and we should approach 50 MPG in summer. I expect that in a TCH we would be getting about equal. The TCH has more power, but a less refined EV/ICE transition and a less refined regenerative braking feel.

 

The TCH is a very good car. If Ford had not come out with the new FFH until 2014 we would be driving a TCH right now, Ford just happened to get the FFH out just in time for when we were looking to buy that right now Toyota has not had time to respond and improve the TCH. I expect that by 2015 at the latest the TCH will be better than the FFH and Ford will again be playing catch up, but for now...

 

we love our Fusion and believe that it is the best hybrid sedan available :banana piano:


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#27 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:32 PM

Yes, there are a lot of points in your post that are spot on. but for the stereo, I have a keen ear for music, and can tell the difference between the two. The Sony system is far better than both, but the XLE stereo is a bit better in that it can touch on mid range and highs a lot crisper. 

 

However, I sorely wish I had the same experience with the Fusion as you are.  I had a final call from Ford, and she pretty much said, we wasted enough time on you, no problem found with the car, if you dont like driving it slow like they showed you, then dont.  Oh well, Ford just made an enemy today. 

 

I can only hope that maybe someday something breaks on the car in such a way that it actually does start to get the kind of mileage you are getting, since apparently according to Ford, nothing is broken. Weird, but that's how they see it. She really didn't care at all that I road tested another Fusion and a Cmax and had no problem getting over 40 in them.  


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#28 OFFLINE   B25Nut

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:09 PM

"The fact it has a proven reliability record, and its record of hitting EPA numbers is what leads a lot of people to purchase the TCH over the FFH."

I agree that the TCH's reliability record gives it a leg up on the FFH, but get over the "hitting EPA numbbers". Even Consumer Reports admitted that the FFH still has slightly better MPG than the TCH. My Fusion has the same lifetime MPG as yours Acdii, and it's improving as our weather here warms up. Like you've told others, just enjoy your car.

#29 OFFLINE   Da0ne

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by B25Nut viewpost.gif
The 2013 FFH's style, combined with its quiet smoothness, is creating an emotional attachment that FFH owners would not get with most other vehicles. Plus, driving a car that no one else has in your hometown is a great ego boost.
this is what drove me to buy the FFH although i never considered the TCH because i for one don't like the way it looks and the number of people in my neighborhood (majority livery cabs) have them it drove me away from considering a camry

I have to say coming from a 07 Corolla and this being my first hybrid and not knowing how to drive well yet i think the FFH is doing good in these NYC weather. 

i get 39 mpg in the morning going 50 - 60 and the evening getting 45 mpg same speed and today as the temp was warmer i got 42 mpg 

also on a 100 mile round trip i avg out 50.2 and that day the temp was 20 wit wind chill at 6 so i do believe the numbers can be achieved

plus i like the way people stare at the car
i cant stand ignorant people they are both good cars we just prefer to be different
 
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#30 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:24 AM

Yes, there are a lot of points in your post that are spot on. but for the stereo, I have a keen ear for music, and can tell the difference between the two. The Sony system is far better than both, but the XLE stereo is a bit better in that it can touch on mid range and highs a lot crisper. 

 

However, I sorely wish I had the same experience with the Fusion as you are.  I had a final call from Ford, and she pretty much said, we wasted enough time on you, no problem found with the car, if you dont like driving it slow like they showed you, then dont.  Oh well, Ford just made an enemy today. 

 

I can only hope that maybe someday something breaks on the car in such a way that it actually does start to get the kind of mileage you are getting, since apparently according to Ford, nothing is broken. Weird, but that's how they see it. She really didn't care at all that I road tested another Fusion and a Cmax and had no problem getting over 40 in them.  

 

I'm tone deaf so I'm glad for your input.

 

I'm very sorry to hear what your final results were from Ford. I do have empathy for you, Fynack, nmadole and others who obviously have something wrong with your cars. I don't know what I would do in your situation. I wish you the best


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#31 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:09 AM

Thanks buddy!  Just have to live with it and hope for the best.  I resigned myself to having a lemon, and just hoping that its a glitch that will be found and corrected soon.   It still gets better gas mileage than the rest of the lineup, so there is that! 

 

 

Besides, $5000 buys a LOT of gas! 


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#32 OFFLINE   B25Nut

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:49 PM

A TCH owner, after listing all the improvements to the 2012 TCH, had this to say about the FFH:

 

"The only conclusion you can come to is that the FFH is one generation behind the Camry, and needs a major redesign to be competitive."

 

The first response from a potential buyer was "But it [FFH] looks so good and handles quite well. That's what will drive its sales.". The next one came from a 2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid owner, which says it all:

 

"For me when I look at a TCH and FFH side by side, I think the TCH is a very bland looking car. For me it is almost has the look of an appliance. Nothing in the TCH's lines really draw me to it. The FFH has more curb appeal to me.

In general that is a reason why I haven't been that interested in most of the mainstream Japanese car models. They play it too safe with the styling. The last several years Accords, Camrys, etc. have screamed appliance to me. I want something with a bit more style. For me it is similar when my friend would be pointing out some girl and say she has a great personality. I want more than a great personality, I want the chassis to match as well...

Toyota has played it so safe with the Camry it just annoys the heck out of me. While it has gotten slightly more attractive after the last redesign I still couldn't really seriously consider it. At least with my TAH they took some chances and I think they paid off for the most part in the styling department. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder but the Camry just doesn't have enough curb appeal for me."


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#33 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:17 PM

I wonder which Fusion that first comment was referring to?  generation behind?  Um, let see, Fusion gets more MPG, check, has better styling, double check, has more options, like Adaptive Cruise, auto highbeams, check, check, and um yeah, check. OK. I think they have it backwards, Toyota has some catching up to do. Especially when the direct competition option to option to the Fusion is the Avalon, at a much steeper cost too.  


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#34 OFFLINE   B25Nut

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:39 PM

The TCH owner that claims the 2013 FFH is a generation behind gets less than 34 mpg with his car.  He's a great example of how prejudice can blind you to the facts.  The only advantages I saw with the TCH are its proven reliablity and the bigger trunk with a spare tire, but this is a factor in its looking like an appliance.


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#35 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:47 PM

Weren't me, at least not that I remember saying.  I do remember saying the one I had was like going backwards, but that was then, and I am convinced the new Fusion is doing far better that Camry.   So if it wasn't me, hmm maybe it was  :baby:


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#36 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:24 PM

Don't forget that the seats do not fold down in the Camry. That was one of the reasons that the FFH rated higher than the TCH in our comparison shopping


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#37 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:28 PM

Weren't me, at least not that I remember saying.   So if it wasn't me, hmm maybe it was  :baby:

You thinking of running for public office? 


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The Time Machine....
'13 FFH SE - Platinum White
Custom ordered, build date: 11/30/12, delivered: 12/12/12 - Sold: 09/05/15
 

#38 OFFLINE   Da0ne

Da0ne

    Fusion Hybrid Enthusiast

  • Fusion Hybrid Member
  • 323 posts
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • Location:NYC
  • Current Vehicle:Ford Fusion Energi, 2014 Lexus IS 250 AWD
  • My Hybrid's Year:2013

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:56 PM

lmao wow seriously there is no comparison the TCH was never an option for me as here in NYC there are too many of those driving around as cabs i didnt want to be confused for one so that was out of the question the only other hybrid i was considering was the Lexus ct200h, then i saw the fusion and it was like love at first site and for the same price as the ct200 that changed my mind right away for a bigger car with more options and better mpg and havent regretted any min of it


Edited by Da0ne, 10 April 2013 - 04:57 PM.

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retired 9/23

 

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#39 OFFLINE   fusionTX

fusionTX

    Fusion Hybrid Enthusiast

  • Fusion Hybrid Member
  • 621 posts
  • Region:Decline
  • Location:Houston, TX
  • Current Vehicle:2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid Titanium

Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:35 PM

Where looks and features are concerned, there is no comparison. Fusion wins hands down.
The new Fusion still has to prove itself regarding reliability.
MPG-wise they are probably similar.

On my way to pick up my new Fusion right now, and just sold my 2007 Camry Hybrid for 12,000.
Looking forward to enjoying the Fusion. It really was love at first sight with the Fusion.
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2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid Titanium[list]
[*]Sterling Gray, Navigation, Driver Assist, Adaptive Cruise Control
[*]Navigation, Driver Assist, Park Assist, Moonroof, Trunk Cargo Net

#40 OFFLINE   B25Nut

B25Nut

    Fusion Hybrid Enthusiast

  • Fusion Hybrid Member
  • 809 posts
  • Region:U.S. Pacific Coast
  • Location:Templeton, CA
  • Current Vehicle:2013 Fusion Hybrid White Platinum - Dune
  • My Hybrid's Year:2013

Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:45 PM

TX, I'm very happy to hear your day has arrived! You've been here a long time, and have been a great inquiring mind.
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