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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Register your Fusion Hybrid at the official Ford authorized registry here.


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How do you get maximum regenerative braking?

braking regenerative

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63 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:26 AM

As for my Gap settings I change it all the time.  Normally I like two bars, but on the freeway if I see a big truck, I get behind it and set to one bar to draft.  I get lots of EV that way if the truck is under 65mph.   Like that.

 

But if I see traffic building up ahead, I go 4 bars to increase distance and allow more automated speed.  I don't have to interveine with brakes as much this way.

I tried the 1 bar approach behind a truck, the driver got pissed and played games, so I keep it at 2 bars and still do very good.  I found that if you can get behind a flatbed and set it at 2 bars, I get the best highway mileage. WHen I had the Pious I got 75 MPG doing this. 


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#42 OFFLINE   malibu3105

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:46 AM

I tried the 1 bar approach behind a truck, the driver got pissed and played games, so I keep it at 2 bars and still do very good.  I found that if you can get behind a flatbed and set it at 2 bars, I get the best highway mileage. WHen I had the Pious I got 75 MPG doing this. 

 

lol.  Bad Truck Driver !!!

 

-- Looking for flatbeds now --


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#43 OFFLINE   hermans

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:14 AM

I tried the 1 bar approach behind a truck, the driver got pissed and played games, so I keep it at 2 bars and still do very good.  I found that if you can get behind a flatbed and set it at 2 bars, I get the best highway mileage. WHen I had the Pious I got 75 MPG doing this. 

You are lucky he didn't test his underride guard on you.


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#44 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:31 PM

No nothing like that, He sped up and slowed down a lot. I follow the rule of if I can see his mirror I am far enough behind, yet close enough to benefit.


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#45 OFFLINE   Barsoom

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 01:20 PM

I find the tach display useless on a continuously variable engine. It's more useful on a standard car with multiple gears. On a continuous varlable engine, the power display is more useful.

 

I started out using the Empower display to see where the EV is relative to the max EV box. I've recently been paying attention to the Engage display that shows the ICE and EV graphs side-by-side, especially when in adaptive cruise control. It's interesting to see when the car uses the EV to boost the ICE.

 

The only thing that you don't get on Engage is the EV limit indicator before the ICE takes over. From practice and experience, it seems that the EV disengages at the half-way point on the Engage display, but will use the whole range when in EV+ mode.



#46 OFFLINE   Riggo

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 02:15 PM

I try to stay as far awy from trucks as possible to avoid the rocks they toss up. I already have a really tiny chip in the windshield from a semi

#47 OFFLINE   MaineFusion

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:58 PM

Getting the car up to speed from a dead stop uses a lot of energy.  The proven method is to use the engine to accelerate to speed and then release the throttle and then reapply to get it to switch to electric mode to maintain that speed, assuming you are not climbing a hill.

 
At 0mph an ICE has zero torque, where as an electric motor has 100% torque the instant it gets juice.  This means overall from a stop, you use your energy more efficiently to start in EV mode. 
 

What I find most effective, and the coach agrees, start out rolling on EV for about 5-7 MPH and let the ICE kick in. When you do it right you wont even feel the ICE spin up. What it doesn't like is hitting the throttle from a dead stop, it will drop that bar faster than Congress voting on an unread bill.  However accelerating on EV only up to say 30 MPH does waste fuel because now you have to recharge the batteries with the ICE, and that is where the gas gets wasted. Go read the thread accelerating under the Hybrid tricks forum.

 
I will typically try to stay in EV mode up to at least 15mph, but yes it is best to come off a complete stop in EV mode.  I don't know where the best point is to switch over to ICE, but in general just to keep Bubba from pushing you off the road you need to switch over to ICE at some point to improve acceleration.
  
 

On the braking, I have noticed that if I used the Adaptive Cruise, and someone cuts in front of me, or traffic slows really quick, my car can slow down (on its own – I don’t touch the brake) from 60+ to 10mph very fast.  I always assume this is only using the regen braking.  But maybe I am wrong. 
Any opinions on this?  If it’s using only the regen braking, then is it charging at a higher rate because of the fast braking effect?  In other words, generating more charge due to the harder regen action?
Or is it actually using the friction brakes as well as the regen?
I would love to learn the limit where it goes to friction.  But maybe only the computer can max out the regen braking, and won’t do that when the driver is using the brake pedal.

 
Adaptive Cruise Control has a habit of kicking in friction brakes if it thinks it needs to slow down really quick.  This is one reason I really wish there was a three second following distance option.  One thing I learned from my days of commercial driving is that if you are having to apply the brakes frequently to adjust for the speed of drivers in front of you, you are following too damn close.  With a proper following distance, you can simply let off the accelerator and drift to a slower speed to adjust for minor traffic changes ahead.

 

I'm pretty sure the car will use both regen and friction brakes when it stops that fast. What really bugs me is when someone in front of me turns and I can see them driving away from my lane, but my car keeps slowing down! It takes a lot of energy to get back to cruising speed and the ICE engine usually kicks in ... when it could've slowed down less and just kept on cruising, but get a little closer to the car in front of me :)

 
Ya I find that a bit annoying as well, but if I see it is going to happen, I temporary cancel cruise control and apply the proper amount of breaking to adjust for the turning vehicle.
 

There are four settings for the gap between the two cars.  Which one are you using?
Sporty (1 second), Normal (1.5 seconds), Normal (1.9 seconds), Comfort (2.3 seconds).

 
Thanks, I never new what the bars represented.  I really wish there was at least a fifth bar for 3 seconds. This would give the adaptive cruise control more space to more gradually adjust for changes in speed by the leading vehicle.
 
In all truthfulness from a safe driving perspective the ideal following distance is never less than two seconds.   Anyone following at one second is asking to eat the bumper in front of them.
 

I tried the 1 bar approach behind a truck, the driver got pissed and played games, so I keep it at 2 bars and still do very good.  I found that if you can get behind a flatbed and set it at 2 bars, I get the best highway mileage. WHen I had the Pious I got 75 MPG doing this.

 
One bar is fullish and it makes truck drivers really nervous. I don't think they realize you have automated systems that will adjust your vehicle speed to whatever they are doing.  What they are envisioning is that a moment of inattention on your part will cause you to ride up under their rear bumper causing a serious accident.
 
Even at two bars you really don't have time to react if one of the truck's tires start shredding (I've had it happen).
 

I try to stay as far awy from trucks as possible to avoid the rocks they toss up. I already have a really tiny chip in the windshield from a semi

Ya nothing will destroy the front paint job or windshield faster than road debris or shredding truck tires.


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#48 OFFLINE   vangonebuy

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:39 AM

At 0mph an ICE has zero torque, where as an electric motor has 100% torque the instant it gets juice.

Is that right??? :headscratch:

Just a question on this. To clarify my thoughts.

 

When ever I start any elec motor.

There is a starting lag. A ramp up to speed and then there is the max running momentum creating max torque. Not 100% torque at juice time.

It's torque is much faster than any gas engine drivetrain. MY point is that its more like 1-3 seconds. Closer to 60%+ at juiced.

 

Gas engines running do have torque, It's just pissed away in the torque converter.

Awaiting adequate pressure to force rotation. But it will hold you in place on a  small hill.

 

 

I will typically try to stay in EV mode up to at least 15mph, but yes it is best to come off a complete stop in EV mode.  I don't know where the best point is to switch over to ICE, but in general just to keep Bubba from pushing you off the road you need to switch over to ICE at some point to improve acceleration.

 

 

I believe that electric start method is the best way to increase your overall MPG's.

But the load on the car determines the best point of transition to gas engine. (Going uphill for example takes much more torque)

So, it's always variable.

 

I agree about the 15 mph switch over in practice. It seems to match my experiences so far.   If I do trip on the ICE. I use it to get quickly to cruising speed. Then let the elec take back over.

 

Sure would like to find a better way.



#49 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:56 AM

Is that right??? :headscratch:

Just a question on this. To clarify my thoughts.

Yes that is right.  Electric motors have very high torque at 0 rpm.

 

http://www.engineeri...ques-d_651.html


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#50 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 04:26 PM

Yes that is right.  Electric motors have very high torque at 0 rpm.
 
http://www.engineeri...ques-d_651.html


In addition to this link we are also talking about an PMSM motor which does have a so called holding torque which is the max torque of the motor as soon you apply power.
With AC motors is a bit different like the curve on the link shows. PMSM motors have their max torque at a designed speed that's why the torque increases as speed increases.

 

PMSM = Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor still AC not DC


Edited by corncobs, 20 August 2013 - 08:19 PM.

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#51 OFFLINE   vangonebuy

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:16 PM

I thought the DC would be a be more powerful off the line.

Thanks for the education.
 



#52 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:36 PM

I thought the DC would be a be more powerful off the line.
Thanks for the education.
 


Oh they are powerful and you can break a lot of things including the actual motor shaft.
I guess it all depends on the PMSM motor design and control in Ford's hybrid system they might apply the juice in stage making it easier on all components to deal with instant torque against a 3000# standing object.

I would love to know more about the concept in general.


Edited by corncobs, 20 August 2013 - 08:20 PM.

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#53 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:00 PM

Oh they are powerful and you can break a lot of things including the actual motor shaft.
I guess it all depends on the DC motor design and control in Ford's hybrid system they might apply the juice in stage making it easier on all components to deal with instant torque against a 3000# standing object.

I would love to know more about the concept in general.

In the PPP(I still cant say it) the traction control kicks in quickly to prevent breakage due to this very fact.  Unfortunately, if you were ever in the need for some get up and go and have a tire slip, it could account for some very scary moments, hence the reason I got rid of the one we had in under a year.


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#54 OFFLINE   MaineFusion

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:39 PM

In the PPP(I still cant say it) the traction control kicks in quickly to prevent breakage due to this very fact.  Unfortunately, if you were ever in the need for some get up and go and have a tire slip, it could account for some very scary moments, hence the reason I got rid of the one we had in under a year.

What the heck is PPP? Pink plugin prius?


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#55 OFFLINE   Eddie Sessum

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:31 PM

I read that on the energi there is a mod you can do to make it give you full EV power. Similar to what the tesla's and many other EVs have. Where you can basicly burn the tires into the ground untill the battery dies. 


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#56 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:33 PM

I corrected some of my previous posts I must have been drunk or something but I didn't have all my brain cells in order.

 

The hybrid system is using a Permanent Magnet AC Synchronous Motor or PMSM and the torque curve looks like the following

 

servo-system-ts-curve.jpg

 

My comments about the torque of such a motor is still correct I just used the wrong terminology and it's still an AC motor driven by an inverter controlling the motor by converting the HVB DC to AC.

 

Sorry...


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#57 OFFLINE   majorleeslow

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 07:32 AM

Those are very interesting thoughts. Did you have a breakin period that was not as good mileage? Mine is only getting 32 mpg. I do have the 18" wheels and BF Goodrich tires and have heard that will give me worse mileage than stock 16" tires. I drive like a grandma and still only 32. I do only have 900 miles so far. You also say the weather doesn't make a difference? A lot of others say it does? Who do I believe?
Thanks,

I get over the epa almost 99% off the trips. the trick is to manipulate the physics to get better mpg. Look for the least traffic route under 50 mph , anticipate stop signs and coast a lot, do not use all the ev threshold, use blower at low speed instead of ac/ climate. dwb driving without brakes reduces the losses of conversion of energy from one form to other twice. on highway fools an suv or a truck at a safe distance. let them move the air for you. accelerate downhill and use that kinetic energy uphill. I use Empower mode to anticipate the level of juice in the battery pack. someone I can keep backing off as it shrinks to almost zero. No other screens show this and I love this feature in ffh. try these and if you don't see an improvement then there's something wrong in the car cvt slipping or alignment or tire air low or something. good luck.
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#58 OFFLINE   malibu3105

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:11 AM

Majorleeslow,

Those are great tips, but part of the point is the car get the good mileage and not the driver, at least to a point.

If I drove my Grand Prix that way I probably could have got 25 to 30 mpg.

 

Here in this part of California, you don't drive the freeways under 60 or you will get a ticket, or get shot, unless the traffic is bad which is a lot of the time.

Lots of speeding up, and slowing down with traffic.  If you don't move with the person in front, the person behind will swerve around you, many times getting really close to make a point while honking.

 

My current issue is since the update for better mileage, my mileage has gone down.  Less EV time for some reason.

Was coasting yesterday, in the afternoon so engine was warm, and it still was using ICE and mpg showed about 5.

Would not go EV until I used the break.

 

Maybe it needs to break in again as it got reset, or maybe something is wrong with my engine.  It has over 6,000 miles on it.

 

They  have called me in for a service / oil change.  Strange since they originally told me 10,000 is when my oil gets changed.

Of course, that was before I purchased my car.  Figures.

 

Well it's mine now so at least I am averaging between 39 and 40 mpg most of the time.


Thanks,

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#59 OFFLINE   majorleeslow

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:14 AM

Agreed I'd ask him to take a look at changing the gas station. for me I stay away from the no name gas stations that add way more ethanol and butane than mandated. On my recent long trip I had numbers from 10% higher to 15% lower from epa on my minivan. just measured on the tank fill and with scangage.
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#60 OFFLINE   majorleeslow

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:15 AM

just a thought that maybe the car is still fine the fuel maynot be.
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