Help Needed! Know issues first versus second generation?

[maiabee]

Hi,

I had decided on trying to find a used first generation Fusion due to reading the forum and seeing that second generation has issues with the transmission, which would be expensive to fix. I'm aware of the throttle body issue with the first generation, but that seems less expensive to repair, at least (was quoted $1,000).

 

Does the first generation have any other known issues other than the throttle body?

 

Does the second generation have any other know issues other than the transmission?

 

Does every car experience these known issues?

 

How long should I expect the hybrid battery to last? The cars I'm looking at have fairly high mileage due to my budget-120-130,000.

 

I was also looking at Prius second generation but ruled it out because I drive my daughter to school and it doesn't rate well for rear end collision, and the third generation has issues with oil consumption/head gasket. I'm hoping that the Fusion would be a good car to buy, and would really appreciate any help and advice!

 

Thanks so much in advance!

Edited February 8, 2019 by maiabee

[Automate]

I would not buy a 2013-2014 with over 100K miles on it unless the eCVT has been replaced. The 13 and 14s had a manufacturing problems with the eCVT that was corrected later in production. So if the eCVT has been replaced by a dealer, it should be a good one. You can use Carfax to see whether a dealer has replaced the eCVT.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Automate

[maiabee]

Thanks so much for your reply! To clarify, would all 2013-2014 cars be affected, or only some of them? When I've asked some people selling cars about it they say they haven't had it replaced and have not had an issue. Is the eCVT problem something that will only show up with high mileage?

[Automate]

I think most 2013 and early 2014s will end up having the problem. See a list here

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/10342-info-on-transmissions-ecvt-that-have-failed

 

Also see the post here http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/5562-customer-satisfaction-program-14b07-transmission-inspection-and-repair/?do=findComment&comment=60970

about the manufacture dates for the C-Max. Fusion Hybrid should be similar since it has the same eCVT.

 

 

 

 

[Waldo]

When you read about "major" problems on a car forum, you're only seeing the stories of failures. The truth is these failure rates are less than 1%.

Ford and the other OEMs thoroughly test everything they make and include a factor of safety into those tests. When you see "common" failures it means that something in the manufacturing process has drifted out of tolerance for some reason. But tolerances are all about statistics, some are going to be worse than others and even some bad ones if given good conditions might still be fine. So saying that "most" are going to fail is really a huge exaggeration, you're still far, far more likely to not have a problem than to have one.

[Automate]

The low failure rates you mention are during the warranty period when the OEM has to pay. The failure rate after warranties expire are much higher. OP is talking about purchasing a car with 130K miles and probably wants it to last another 100K at least. When the failure cost $6k or more to fix, its a high risk.

 

What percent of cars with 230K are still on the road? Even less of ones with known engine or transmission manufacturing defects.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Automate

[Waldo]

If you do any kind of statistical analysis with vehicle quality data, you find that early failures are a great predictor of high mileage failures.

 

I think the point I'm trying to make is that once you're talking in the 130K to 230K mile range, there are way too many influencing factors to be able to make any real predictions on whether any particular car will be better than any other.

[Texasota]

When you read about "major" problems on a car forum, you're only seeing the stories of failures. The truth is these failure rates are less than 1%.

Thank you, Waldo. I have been wondering for a long time what the actual failure rate is on our transmissions. I am less worried now about the “sword of Damocles” we have been told is hanging over all of our heads.

[ethermion]

I dunno what is going on. This forum seems to have attracted more dingle berries than before.

 

Pointing us to a thread with a dozen people with transmission problems, when hundreds of thousands have been manufactured, then labeling them as high risk, is just nasty Internet trolling. Evil, and I hate evil.

 

Just wait a little bit. We are due for a post that if you over inflate your tires to a dangerous pressure, your transmission will last longer, and you will be transformed into a chick magnet and your ED cured.

 

I love my 2010, my lovely bride loves her 2013. Best cars ever found in my stable. Would not hesitate to buy another one used.

[lolder]

The 2013 14 Ford Fusions and C-max's had a manufacturing defect mostly associated with transmission bearings that have caused premature failures from the beginning. The Japanese Aisin made transmissions Ford used from 2004 to 2012 had almost none. It's a fact.

Consider yourself lucky that you haven't had a problem.

 

If you went to a junkyard 50 years from now and took an Aisin transmission from the rusted heap of a 2004-2012 Ford hybrid it would probably still work like new. Ford brought the manufacture in house in 2013 and screwed it up. They are just waiting out the warranty expiration and will not issue a recall because it's not a safety issue. They make noise for a long time.

[Texasota]

The 2013 14 Ford Fusions and C-max's had a manufacturing defect mostly associated with transmission bearings that have caused premature failures from the beginning. The Japanese Aisin made transmissions Ford used from 2004 to 2012 had almost none. It's a fact.

Consider yourself lucky that you haven't had a problem.

 

If you went to a junkyard 50 years from now and took an Aisin transmission from the rusted heap of a 2004-2012 Ford hybrid it would probably still work like new. Ford brought the manufacture in house in 2013 and screwed it up. They are just waiting out the warranty expiration and will not issue a recall because it's not a safety issue. They make noise for a long time.

Yes, you have repeated this irrational drama countless times on this forum. Pleaseeeeeze, just provide a link to any one of your numerous duplicate rants instead of droning on and on with even more duplicate posts. Several months ago I suggested one for your duplicate posts as a good candidate because it was a rarity in that it was surprisingly free of your irrational drama (e.g. “sword of Damocles”). Give your Aisin transmission a big hug, tuck it in at night, be happy and sleep peacefully with the knowledge that you don't own a second generation FFH.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Texasota

[Automate]

If I had a 2013 I would NOT be losing sleep over the eCVT.

 

But, if I'm the OP who is trying to deciding what year used car to buy, why would I choose a 2013 when Ford recognizes the eCVT had a manufacturing problem and issued a TSB and which Consumer Reports shows measurably higher major transmission problems than a 2012 or 2015?

[Waldo]

It's a perfectly rational thing to consider when buying a used car. But how much more would you pay for a 2015 vs a suspect 2013 or 2014? I wouldn't tell somebody they should pay $5000 less for a 2013 because they need to save that money to replace the transmission. But I would tell 100 people to pay $50 less.

[Texasota]

If I had a 2013 I would NOT be losing sleep over the eCVT.

 

But, if I'm the OP who is trying to deciding what year used car to buy, why would I choose a 2013 when Ford recognizes the eCVT had a manufacturing problem and issued a TSB and which Consumer Reports shows measurably higher major transmission problems than a 2012 or 2015?

Automate, can you post the CR data you are referencing? I subscribe to CR (print edition only) but I have not been able to find transmission reliability data broken out separately for the FFH.

[Texasota]

Waldo, can you share anything about the failure rate of the conventional ICE fusion transmissions as compared to the FFH? I'm curious if it is significantly different/better?

Edited February 12, 2019 by Texasota

[Automate]

@Texasota

 

To replace the transmission TSB 16-0105

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2016/SB-10092366-5448.pdf

 

Later they started rebuilding rather than replace

Customer Satisfaction Program 14B07

https://ford.oemdtc.com/2846/customer-satisfaction-program-14b07-transmission-inspection-and-repair-2013-2014-ford-c-max-fusion-hybrid

 

Actually it looks like they have extended it to some 2015 and 2016s

Edited February 13, 2019 by Automate

[Texasota]

@Texasota

 

To replace the transmission TSB 16-0105

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2016/SB-10092366-5448.pdf

 

Later they started rebuilding rather than replace

Customer Satisfaction Program 14B07

https://ford.oemdtc.com/2846/customer-satisfaction-program-14b07-transmission-inspection-and-repair-2013-2014-ford-c-max-fusion-hybrid

 

Actually it looks like they have extended it to some 2015 and 2016s

Thanks very much for posting. That is the most detailed information I have seen on the actual cause of the transmission failure (transfer shaft gear assembly bearing). Nice to see that Ford offered a customer satisfaction program to repair the 2013 and 2014 transmissions with the problem regardless of mileage. To bad it expired in 2016. Given that it has been extended to some of the 2015s and 2016s it makes one wonder if they really have a fix for the problem other than replacing the failing parts (or entire transmission)?

 

If you have the Consumer Reports magazine data you mentioned, could you please post it?

[Automate]

 

If you have the Consumer Reports magazine data you mentioned, could you please post it?

 

One issue with the Consumer Reports data is they group all Fusions together so V6, I4 and Hybrid all get lumped together even through they have completely different transmissions.

 

The below data is for the C-max which in North America only comes with a eCVT. Model year is at the top.

 

[Texasota]

 

One issue with the Consumer Reports data is they group all Fusions together so V6, I4 and Hybrid all get lumped together even through they have completely different transmissions.

 

The below data is for the C-max which in North America only comes with a eCVT. Model year is at the top.

 

Cmax.PNG

Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for and the first time I have seen CR reliability data specifically for the C-Max/Fusion eCVT. You are correct that the 2013 and the 2014 are not as good as the 2015. However, this data (reported by owners via the CR annual reliability survey) still earned a "Very Good" (single green up arrow) rating for transmission minor and major on the 2013 and 2014. The 2015+ model years earned a rating of "Excellent" (double green up arrow) for transmission minor and major.

 

This CR data appears to confirm what Waldo told us in post #5 (see above). The number of failures is a very small percentage and that the reliability of all years of this eCVT is way better than average. Waldo is also right that forums such as this can give the wrong impression given the irrational emotion/drama that has been repeated so many times.

 

I don't mean to be dismissive to the owners that have a FFH e-CVT that failed. It is a pain when it happens. Fortunately, it's a very small percentage and the overwhelming majority of those were replaced via the 8/100,000 warranty on the hybrid components.

 

So far, my FFH is the best car I have ever owned. Hope it continues.