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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Register your Fusion Hybrid at the official Ford authorized registry here.


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Won't run in EV mode, ICE kicks in immediately.

EV Mode ICE MPG

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131 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 07:03 AM

There are two electric motors.  Either can be a motor or a generator.  In normal operation if the engine is running it drives one electric motor as a generator and the current flow is to the other electric motor driving the wheels.  If there is excess current available it also charges the battery.  There are very few conditions where the engine is directly connected to the wheels.  Reverse is not possible from the engine.  It is always from an electric motor.  Under full throttle acceleration the engine and an electric motor can combine to drive the wheels directly.  I no longer have the link but search for the Toyota hybrid drive explanation.  The Ford system is almost exactly the same.

 

It is impossible to charge and discharge a battery at the same time.


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#42 OFFLINE   dogo88

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 07:20 AM

There are two electric motors.  Either can be a motor or a generator.  In normal operation if the engine is running it drives one electric motor as a generator and the current flow is to the other electric motor driving the wheels.  If there is excess current available it also charges the battery.  There are very few conditions where the engine is directly connected to the wheels.  Reverse is not possible from the engine.  It is always from an electric motor.  Under full throttle acceleration the engine and an electric motor can combine to drive the wheels directly.  I no longer have the link but search for the Toyota hybrid drive explanation.  The Ford system is almost exactly the same.

 

It is impossible to charge and discharge a battery at the same time.

 

Here is a great little article along with working image that you can adjust on how they work together:

http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

 

 



#43 OFFLINE   proffitt25

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 01:26 PM

Huh. That's interesting. I should have researched more before I started driving one of these just for fun's sake.

 

So, this model doesn't include the battery yet, that's an additional layer, but it shows a larger MG2 motor that is attached to the wheels; wheels don't turn unless that electric motor is turning. ok.

Murphy said: In normal operation if the engine is running it drives one electric motor as a generator and the current flow is to the other electric motor driving the wheels.  If there is excess current available it also charges the battery. 

ok. if in that model I kick the ICE to 2000 rpm, holding MG2 at 0, MG1 is spinning, but actually too fast (that's an aside interesting as I can sit in park with my foot on the gas at 3000 rpm, so there's something different between that model (prius) and our vehicle I think). But anyway, assuming I'm driving, maybe MG2 kicks in to get me to 25 mph. MG1 is spinning at 3391 rpm. So, the current flow is to MG1, which is driving MG2, correct?  I don't know how to know if there would be enough excess to also charge the battery. 

 

I'm further not sure how my pushing the gas pedal converts a signal to fire MG2 vs. ICE. Obviously it's dependent on how hard I'm pressing it, whether I'm on a hill, and battery charge level, but how those factors convert to this model I don't know. 

 

I'm trying to bring this back to the question: if I have a 75% charged battery, and I coast down a hill, should a) the battery be charging up, b) is this kicking on the ICE to do so? and is that by design or indicative of a problem?

I would presume that when I'm coasting downhill, the ICE is off and no electrical motors need to be driving the wheels. I'm sure that betrays my naivety about how cars work. If that were true then you couldn't correlate it to the power split device model, because RPM would be zero on the motors, but speed would be positive. I suppose that with a positive speed downhill, MG2 is getting turned by the wheels? and thus MG2 is turning in reverse-- so maybe the battery is getting charged simply by that energy, sort of like regen braking? and the ICE is out of the equation?

 

I'm not sure, this clarifies some things and yet shows I need a deeper understanding. 
 
Back to real world numbers, I filled up today and then spent a little time looking back through my mpg history. It's variable of course, I think my best tank ever was 38.5, soon after I acquired the car with about 40k miles. It's somewhat steadily fallen over the following 6 years and was hovering around 30 mpg before it just took another little nosedive in the last couple of months to 27-28. Which all adds up to this newest behavior, possibly affected by airbag recall and computer reset, not having a great effect on my gas mileage.
 
It does make me wonder a couple of things. First, in another thread someone posted the images showing how much available power they have to run in electric-- from the dead stop the line is barely discernible from 0. This matches my behavior and I think probably has for a while. Under ideal conditions, how high do you guys see that bar go? I have 7 notches in the "empower" view, I think it is. With the HV full, flat surface yesterday running at 15 mph, that bar goes only to the first notch. Thinking back on it, I'm not sure I've ever seen that (green) bar go any higher than 1 notch. Wish I'd paid closer attention. So-- are my batteries dying but none of my systems are telling me yet? Are there other tests I can run to know more about that, or must I visit another dealer to learn more? I'm afraid most of the time real-world driving conditions are severely limiting my car's use of its battery; my primary mpg gains are coming from the engine turning off at a stop sign or at a coast, not from the electric motor, driven by the battery, turning the wheels.  I'll keep experimenting...


#44 OFFLINE   proffitt25

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 01:32 PM

 

Hardly matters.  Here it is 100% battery and 20 mph.

 

 

Ah yes, looking back through this thread, it's automate and iolder discussing. Now I understand what he meant about 1/2 division vs. 2.5-3 divisions. So perhaps people see 3 divisions of power sometimes with a new battery pack. I'm seeing up to 1 right now, so a little better than automate's image, but still not great. 

 

Iolder says this is symptomatic of aging battery. Boo. I guess we're coming up on a 10 year old battery pack. What can I do?



#45 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 01:49 PM

When coming down a hill with the engine off the motor connected to the wheels becomes a generator which charges the battery.  If the battery gets full the engine will start running but the injectors are not putting gasoline into the cylinders..  Think of it as a big air compressor used to provide the back force to keep the car from speeding up as it goes down the hill.



#46 OFFLINE   proffitt25

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 01:57 PM

When coming down a hill with the engine off the motor connected to the wheels becomes a generator which charges the battery.  If the battery gets full the engine will start running but the injectors are not putting gasoline into the cylinders..  Think of it as a big air compressor used to provide the back force to keep the car from speeding up as it goes down the hill.

 

So bottom line you're saying this is expected and normal behavior, I'm getting a free recharge, not a hit to my gas mileage from an unnecessarily fired-up ICE. ok, good.

 

Still sounds like my batteries are dying. sob.



#47 OFFLINE   Cnaroach

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 09:06 PM

I just bought a 2010 FFH with 72k miles, having the same problem. In the three days since I bought it, it's never run in EV mode. Ugh.
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#48 OFFLINE   proffitt25

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 11:57 PM

I just bought a 2010 FFH with 72k miles, having the same problem. In the three days since I bought it, it's never run in EV mode. Ugh.

 

Of course knowing nothing about your purchase, I'd be looking for a way to back out on that deal... at least, going into the deal it would be pertinent information to gain that the battery is in bad shape and to make your purchase accordingly.

 

Going way back in the thread, Iolder said this: "the car no longer appears to do periodic battery re-conditioning. Mine did it about every 8K miles until the problem started and then didn't seem to do it anymore."

 

How do you know when your car is doing reconditioning? I seem to recall reading about this 6 years ago, but I'm not aware mine has ever done any sort of conditioning.


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#49 OFFLINE   markwilson66

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 02:29 AM

I only noticed the battery reconditioning 2 or 3 times since I've owned it. The most recent was probably a couple years ago and under 60k miles.
The engine was run constantly while driving and no EV mode at all. Also it would make these clicking noises from under the back seat.

#50 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 09:59 AM

Battery reconditioning is noted by the ICE not turning off for about 15-20 minutes and the HVB charging to above the normal H level. When finished it goes back to the normal 1/2 charged level. If you were cruising above 46 mph you might not notice it. The HVB systems in these older cars are obviously having a problem. Don't count on Ford finding the problem or telling you if they do. They're getting out of the car business so you won;t be a repeat customer.


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#51 OFFLINE   goody1926

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 05:28 PM

 

Ah yes, looking back through this thread, it's automate and iolder discussing. Now I understand what he meant about 1/2 division vs. 2.5-3 divisions. So perhaps people see 3 divisions of power sometimes with a new battery pack. I'm seeing up to 1 right now, so a little better than automate's image, but still not great. 

 

Iolder says this is symptomatic of aging battery. Boo. I guess we're coming up on a 10 year old battery pack. What can I do?

 

Now that mine seems to be showing aging and performance down to 1 division or less I am considering some of these shops that claim off vehicle reconditioning.  One shop wants about $500 for a 2-3 day recondition process.  This shop also offers recondition plus cell replacement should they come across one or more bad ones.  The shop also has brand new packs available for considerably more.

 

As I mentioned before mine came on all of a sudden after it set barely used for 6 months during the airbag recall.

 

Has anyone taken this step of a 3rd party reconditioning or reconditioning and repair?  How about any shareable experience going with an entirely new pack or maybe even one from a salvage yard?


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#52 OFFLINE   dogo88

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 07:46 AM

When I had my FFH 2010 last Dec, I contacted a company that looks to have nationwide coverage, with installers that will come to your site and install the replacement. They offered two choices: new and remanufactured. Neither was an OEM battery. The new had a 36 month warranty and reman had 18 month. Cost was $3400 new and $2700 reman. If you took it to their install locations. They said installation would take a couple of hours. Onsite installation was more. 

 

What made be decide to trade it in on a new 2019 FFH, which I absolutely love, instead of getting the battery replaced was a couple of things. Fist the vehicle was almost 10 years old and had no serious issues. Actually was the least expensive vehicle I have ever owned. But at 10 year things we going to start to go. And all are not inexpensive. But the key issue that made me decide to not change the battery was in talking to the tech support person he pointed out these were not FORD OEM battery but a less expensive replacement. He said OEM batteries were very expensive. And second, if any other electrical components needed replacement that would be an added cost. 

 

My thought process was, if I get a replacement and have an electrical issue, they may say it's a Ford issue, and when I take it to Ford, they will tell me it's a replacement battery issue. So I cut my loses and traded it in.  Some may argue that Ford is getting out of the car business and that wasn't a very good idea. While true they will not be selling many cars in the future, they still are into hybrids. I believe they will be coming out with a F150 hybrid based upon some articles I've read. Time will tell if it was a bad decision.

 

Dan


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#53 OFFLINE   goody1926

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 10:16 PM

When I had my FFH 2010 last Dec, I contacted a company that looks to have nationwide coverage, with installers that will come to your site and install the replacement. They offered two choices: new and remanufactured. Neither was an OEM battery. The new had a 36 month warranty and reman had 18 month. Cost was $3400 new and $2700 reman. If you took it to their install locations. They said installation would take a couple of hours. Onsite installation was more. 

 

What made be decide to trade it in on a new 2019 FFH, which I absolutely love, instead of getting the battery replaced was a couple of things. Fist the vehicle was almost 10 years old and had no serious issues. Actually was the least expensive vehicle I have ever owned. But at 10 year things we going to start to go. And all are not inexpensive. But the key issue that made me decide to not change the battery was in talking to the tech support person he pointed out these were not FORD OEM battery but a less expensive replacement. He said OEM batteries were very expensive. And second, if any other electrical components needed replacement that would be an added cost. 

 

My thought process was, if I get a replacement and have an electrical issue, they may say it's a Ford issue, and when I take it to Ford, they will tell me it's a replacement battery issue. So I cut my loses and traded it in.  Some may argue that Ford is getting out of the car business and that wasn't a very good idea. While true they will not be selling many cars in the future, they still are into hybrids. I believe they will be coming out with a F150 hybrid based upon some articles I've read. Time will tell if it was a bad decision.

 

Dan

 

The same thoughts also crossed my mind when thinking about how things might go down hill even further being almost 10 years and counting.  I am pretty sure I would not go the aftermarket new or reman route at this point due to cost.  Not looking forward to what happens if the battery fails completely eventually.  


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#54 OFFLINE   itsfun4u

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 04:16 PM

I am new to this forum - just found you recently.

 

Unfortunately, I must join the group of Fusion Hybrid owners who have experienced drive train problems since the air bag recall.  The symptoms reported by others are exactly the same as my current experience.

 

I have had the car in to the Ford dealer twice since the recall to address the issues, but with no success.  Dealer has consulted with a Ford technician on their "hot line", but has not been able to get an answer.

 

I provided a copy of the suggestions offered on this forum for "re-balancing" the high voltage battery, which he indicates that he has done, but with no success.

 

Any additional suggestions?  Does anyone have a suggestion of how to reach someone at Ford Motor who really might care about fixing this problem?


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#55 OFFLINE   wmayo

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 02:57 PM

Same exact symptoms here (w/2010 model). No EV in ANY acceleration, even mild on level ground.

Sounds like the rebalancing of HV battery may be the solution. It did start the problem during air bag recall, but I DROVE it regularly (modest miles). EV problem started about the 6th month waiting for air bags.

As far as life of battery. I came across a taxi company in NY that had 200 Fusion (2010) hybrids. The guy told me that at 9 years, there have been NO failures of any HV batteries, and they are running just fine. That doesn't mean that 1 in 500 won't have our problem. But no actual failures for that many is pretty good.

Local dealer here is clueless. Just put $2,000 on car at dealer to replace a couple of valves I've never heard of, and a brake job. Gonna be hard to put another $500 in it.


Edited by wmayo, 15 March 2019 - 02:59 PM.

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#56 OFFLINE   wmayo

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 03:31 PM

I have two 2010 Mercury Milan Hybrids that were in storage for seven months because of the air bag recall. Ford gave me two rental vehicles while it was in storage.  I made sure to start the cars every four weeks and run them for 20 to thirty minutes. I also disconnected the 12v battery as directed in the owner's manual.  The HV batteries now like to stay in the fully charged state instead of staying in the middle on the gauge and the cars stay mostly in the ICE mode except, when braking and maybe a little in the hybrid mode after traveling over 15 miles (even after fully warmed up).  Ford had me sign a statement that I would not use my cars while I had the rental vehicles.   Both cars have only 43,000 miles on them.  I called Ford and they refused to pay for the hybrid repair.  I am waiting for a call back from a Ford supervisor. I feel since I followed the directions in the manual and kept the cars in storage as directed by Ford they should be responsible.  I contacted an attorney who is willing to set up a class action to get me reimbursement for getting my two cars repaired.  Send me a message if you would like to participle and I will give you his contact information.       

Yes, I might be interested.



#57 OFFLINE   Cnaroach

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 05:17 PM

Craziest thing happened today. My 2010 FFH hasn't worked in EV since the airbag recall fix. Dealer had it 12 days, said they rebalanced the HVB twice and it still didn't work. The weather here in Virginia has been high in the 50s at best. Today it was warm, mid 70s, and all of a sudden EV started mostly working. Comes on anytime I hit the brakes, come to a stop, even stays on with light pressure on the accelerator. I still can't get it up to more than a few miles per hour, but I got over 40 miles per gallon all day (compared to the 30 mpg when it was cool outside.) Still not 100% back to normal, but it's much better.
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#58 OFFLINE   Cnaroach

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 05:17 PM

Craziest thing happened today. My 2010 FFH hasn't worked in EV since the airbag recall fix. Dealer had it 12 days, said they rebalanced the HVB twice and it still didn't work. The weather here in Virginia has been high in the 50s at best. Today it was warm, mid 70s, and all of a sudden EV started mostly working. Comes on anytime I hit the brakes, come to a stop, even stays on with light pressure on the accelerator. I still can't get it up to more than a few miles per hour, but I got over 40 miles per gallon all day (compared to the 30 mpg when it was cool outside.) Still not 100% back to normal, but it's much better.

#59 OFFLINE   markwilson66

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 05:38 PM

I've noticed a very minor MPG improvement since the weather is beginning to warm up.
38 MPG vs 37 MPG in cooler temps.  Still not the same as the 41 MPG I was averaging before without even trying.  If I worked at it (hypermiling) I could get 46 MPG.



#60 OFFLINE   PaulGo

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 07:22 PM

Yes, I might be interested.

I left you a PM with the name of my attorney.

 

So far Ford has not found a solution to fixing my two cars.  I brought one into my local Ford dealer and the service manager test drove the car after the service people reprogrammed the computer to Fords recommendations and verified the problem was not fixed.  The dealership test equipment shows no errors in the HV system. (The one car that the Ford dealer has tried to fix has been at the dealer three time of a total of twelve days).   Now that the weather has warmed up my two cars are also performing better in the hybrid mode.  However the HV battery level indicator stays above the normal mid-range level which indicates the storage has degraded the HV battery. It also take more driving before it goes into the somewhat normal hybrid mode. 

 

Cold weather appears to further degrade the ability of the HV battery to reach its normal charge level so I assume that is why it will not go into the hybrid mode during the winter months.  It is very frustrating that my two cars with low mileage were both performing perfectly as hybrids before it went into storage for seven months and because of this air bag related storage the HV battery seems to have been degraded.   







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