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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Won't run in EV mode, ICE kicks in immediately.

EV Mode ICE MPG

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131 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   ErlandsonR

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 12:33 PM

I've noticed the same problem on my 2010 Fusion Hyb. (owned since June '09) It came on rather suddenly, starting in Oct. '18. Local dealer can't find any fault codes related to the EV function. I notice that high voltage battery takes and holds charge but can't supply enough power to drive the electric motor in EV mode. I also note it can assist the ICE mode. I wish there would be an high voltage battery health test roughly equivalent to ten one for the 12 V battery. Ford doesn't seem to have one as far as I can tell. Anyone have suggestions?


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#22 OFFLINE   Automate

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 12:42 PM

Anyone have suggestions?

 

http://forscan.org it can read the status of all the car's modules including the high voltage battery


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#23 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 12:43 PM

It can't be too bad or the engine wouldn't start at all.  The engine is started by the HVB powering one of the electric motors to bring the engine up to the proper rpm and then the fuel injectors are turned on.  The car does not have a traditional starter motor or an alternator.



#24 OFFLINE   Automate

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 04:54 PM

 

Yes, but the power needed to start the ICE is tiny compared to power needed to accelerate the whole car.

 

Look how little is available to move the car

BatteryPower


Edited by Automate, 18 January 2019 - 04:56 PM.


#25 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 07:26 PM

That's where it is when the car's stopped. That being said, it appears that cells are shorting out with age reducing the voltage. The voltage determines how fast the car can be driven in EV as it has to be greater than the voltage produced by the motor when it's turning called "back EMF" ( electro-motive force, ie. voltage. )  I think once cells short, the battery doesn't recondition or balance the cells anymore making the problem worse. I had three events in 2017-18 where the HVB was very much lower in the morning than when left the night before eventually allowing only one division of EV power available instead of three.


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#26 OFFLINE   Rob

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 07:34 PM

I've noticed the same problem on my 2010 Fusion Hyb. (owned since June '09) It came on rather suddenly, starting in Oct. '18. Local dealer can't find any fault codes related to the EV function. I notice that high voltage battery takes and holds charge but can't supply enough power to drive the electric motor in EV mode. I also note it can assist the ICE mode. 

 

May I ask how many miles you have on your FFH?

 

Rob


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#27 OFFLINE   Automate

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 08:50 PM

That's where it is when the car's stopped.

 

Hardly matters.  Here it is 100% battery and 20 mph.

 

BatteryMoving


#28 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 11:33 PM

Yeah that's 1/2 a division about what mine was doing before it went to my grandson last year. I could coax it up to about 35 mph tops. Maybe 2-21/2 divisions when new. I forget. This is symptomatic of shorted cells/lower voltage. The system still tends to keep the HVB at about 1/2 charged on the gauge. As long as the car runs you can still use it. The mpg will degrade somewhat mostly at lower speeds where it won't cycle between ICE and EV much.


Edited by lolder, 18 January 2019 - 11:36 PM.

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#29 OFFLINE   FordHEVtoy

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 11:46 PM

I also am having the same problem with my early 2010 with 95,000 miles.  I live in Oklahoma and noticed the lack of switching into EV and displaying full battery in cold winter weather some last year and now more of it this winter.  Mine often goes 2 weeks without use.  After about 20 to 30 miles of driving it starts running normally if not too cold.  I have been attributing it to going into the HVB rebalancing procedure, either because of low temperature, long rest between use and/or weaking of HVB health.  I had the air bag recall done last weak, but it was doing it before that so I can't blame it on messing with the dash removal.  My dealer is dumber than a soda cracker about hybrids so is of no help. 

 

Helpful to know that I'm not the only one having the same problem, but still looking for a good understanding about just what is causing the symptons and a realistic fix.  Does anyone have any experience with replacing the 12 volt battery to see if has any effect on this issue?  I still have the orginal battery - coming up on 10 years this summer.  Previous experience witth gen1 Prius and Tahoe 2-mode Hybrid is that 12 volt battery needed replacement after about 5 years. 

 

I also had my Fusion Hybrid throw a red wrech powertrain malfuction light while internstate cruising at 75+ mph in 100 deg F temps last summer.  Took about an hour to get the red wrench, would go away when shut down and restarted - leaves no codes.  I'm attributing it to excessive temperature somewhere in HVB package, but no permanent damage.  Anyone else seen this happen?


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#30 OFFLINE   markwilson66

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 12:34 AM

I replaced the 12v battery last year. Didn't make any difference. It was 8+ years old so was about time.

The wrench light at highway speed/warm temps is a separate issue from hybrid battery problem. There's a TSB that I had my dealer apply, I have not had that problem since but it has been pretty cool here in CA.

The EV mode seems to be getting worse. It's almost impossible for me to stay in EV mode for more than a few seconds. My fuel econony is at about 38MPG but it usually goes down a little in winter.

#31 OFFLINE   akaroot

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 03:23 PM

experiencing the same issue. 2010 FFH will not go into EV mode anymore unless fully warmed up and stopped with foot on brake. MPG is down to about 28.6. Had it sitting in garage for about 6 months waiting for Takata air bag to arrive. Heard nothing about special maintenance like running every so often. Did have to sign form stating the car wouldn't be driven. It currently has 133K miles. Does reconditioning battery really work?


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#32 OFFLINE   mmtphoto

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 02:06 PM

My wife uses our 2010 Hybrid to go back and forth to work, about 35 miles round trip, five days a week.  It is almost exclusively stop and go city driving, and for the first year and a half of ownership, that is how it was used.  Then came the Takada airbag recall-end of May 2018 until early December 2018 we had the use of a 2017 Ford Escape (20 mpg tops).  After the first month of using the rental, Ford contacted me and told me to come in to the dealer to sign a paper saying our Hybrid would not be driven-I told them I had driven it about 50 miles total the first month, and that I would continue to do so since a Hybrid has to be driven and the regen function had to be done to maintain the level of charge in the HVB.  I contacted Ford and they agreed that it had to be driven, on a limited basis, to maintain both batteries.  Over the entire period I ended up putting about 250 miles on my Hybrid.  I also own a scanner that will rebalance the HVB which I did complete after it was placed back into service...My personal observation is that gas mileage is down about 15% (from about 33 to 28), and it does not seem to go into or maintain EV like it did prior to the inactivity.  I did express my displeasure with the amount of time the repair took, and was torn between driving it more during the layover and my desire to try to keep it active enough so that it would not damage the batteries.  I am going to hope that when the weather gets warmer here, the EV works more like it did-I for one think the dealer and Ford royally screwed this up by not advising owners to maintain the HVB system-afterall, it costs 2-3 grand to replace it-almost the value of the car after 8-9 years.  So if this layover DID damage my and others' cars, it's like they totaled our cars when they 'shut them down'. and gave us something to drive until we got back our damaged (?) vehicles.  That is not right, and the idea that I or others should have no recourse is wrong, Ford needs to own whatever this becomes.


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#33 OFFLINE   goody1926

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:55 PM

Add me to the growing list of FFH owners experiencing this problem.  Mine also started to act up after sitting for the airbag recall for months.  No acceleration in EV at all with some very limited EV cruising at slower speeds.  I have about 62k on mine (2010).  Seems a potential leading theory is the HVB pack that has potentially degraded significantly and rebalancing might not or may no longer be able to cure it.

 

I went to the dealer a couple days ago just for an initial inquiry.  I already have a routine P2450 and intermittent tire pressure sensor failure that they said would need fixed before they would even try to diagnose the EV mode problem.  I had the P2450 prior to the airbag recall timeout and the EV mode was working just fine then.

 

I have yet to begin research on how to diagnose and repair the TPS failure.  Unfortunately it did not set a code or my OBD reader is just too old.  Since it tends to come on after several miles then after several more miles of driving goes off maybe I need to check codes while the MIL is lit.

 

It seems that even with those fixed then going back to the dealer might still result in their inability to figure it out.

 

Maybe I should just ask them to force a rebalancing and go from there.  Does anyone know of a particular brand OBD tool or software plus adapter that can force a rebalance?


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#34 OFFLINE   Steel705

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 05:54 PM

Add me to the list. My 2011 FFH started acting up the end of January. The 12V battery failed to start the car. I boosted it with my booster pack and immediately had a charging system failure pop up on the dash, instructing me to shutdown safely.

I boosted it again and then it was fine but the battery wouldn’t hold a charge. I replaced the 12 volt battery and now it starts just fine.

However, like everyone else here, my car doesn’t go into EV Mode unless, I’m stopped with my foot on the brake. I took it into the dealership to have it diagnosed and low and behold, was told that all tests were run on it and couldn’t find a problem. The mechanic told me that he cleared a long list of error codes.

I haven’t seen anyone mention this but, after he cleared the codes, I got the best mileage I’ve had since the summer. That was short lived however. It’s back to the same as it was before I took it in.

I’m gonna try put a code scanner on it again and see what it shows. This is definitely not a cold weather driving issue. I live in Northern Ontario in Canada and even when it’s -40, the car starts and runs in EV Mode not long after the engine warms up. Or, at least it used to.
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#35 OFFLINE   Automate

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 07:35 PM

They serviced it by rebalancing the battery cells. ... it now works and drives as it should. 

 

 

Update: The dealer contacted ford Engineering to make sure they were servicing the battery correctly, and they had me come back in because apparently the mechanics didn't realize they needed to configure the battery re-balancing system specifically for my 2010 model. Anyway, they re-balanced it again, and it is now 90% back to normal.

 

@hsk8te2006,

 

Since you seem to be the only person to get this problem fixed, can you give us some more details?  Why did you think it was fixed after the 1st trip to the dealer?  Was it a little better but not 90% better?  What dealer did the work?  Can you post a copy of any paperwork you received showing what actual work they performed?

 

Thanks,


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#36 OFFLINE   proffitt25

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 02:36 PM

Ugh! Add me to the list!

 

I came here to post a longer story and then get to this issue and see it high on the problems, it's uncanny some of the similarity.

 

First off, Ford has royally p-ed me off, corporately, and locally.

To get right to it, I have 2010 fusion hybrid with about 125k miles. I'm not the most conscientious hybrid driver, at best I've gotten 35 mpg with any averaging (2nd owner purchased with 40k miles), and I've quit paying super close attention to when I'm battery and when ICE. I try to drive somewhat conservatively, but just use it as a car.

 

I also have the Takata airbag recall problem of course, passenger side, and Ford took a solid year and a half to get to it. I never stopped driving the car when in my possession (but never let anyone sit passenger). Then after months of waiting I complained enough to get a loaner. Initially I left my Fusion at the dealership. It probably sat there a month, and I did not really consider the possibility of any battery issues as a result. I feel fairly certain Ford did nothing to maintain it. They called me to come trade out the loaner and at the same time realized they weren't actually supposed to let me leave the Fusion with them on their lot. Since their loaner was getting me 20 mpg and my minivan was doing just as well, I decided to get my fusion back, at least I could drive it and get better gas mileage when it was a single-person trip. 

 

I don't *think* anything was awry with vehicle performance in the next 6-8 months that the fusion was back in my possession. After some royal screwups from Ford where they thought they had my parts and then only realized they didn't after I'd dropped my car off, I finally got my airbag replaced. Somewhere in here I noticed though that something wasn't performing right: what I noticed was that when I'd come to a stop , especially perhaps on a cold morning, and be waiting for oncoming traffic to clear before turning, then hit the gas, there was an unreasonable delay, kind of like the car was trying to decide whether to fire the ICE or run in battery mode. Meanwhile I'm practically stalled for a 1.5-s delay, which feels pretty long when the traffic is coming at you and you're trying to make a tight turn.  I did not have this issue looked at, probably back in November, because Ford was going to charge the diagnostic fee as per usual, and I wasn't sure it was a real issue. 

 

The day I got my Ford back after the recall, my air conditioning system was screwed up. The thermostat was not functioning correctly- set at 60 deg, it would blow cold, set at 65 (the next notch warmer), it would blow hot, and it didn't matter what the temperature in the cabin was. When I took the car back in I had them look at this and finally look further into the delayed start issue. 2 diagnostic fees. They said the a/c was ultimately about a wire coming loose, related to ambient temperature sensor, claimed unrelated to their airbag recall work, initially said there would be a labor charge to reconnect, but between my distaste for that idea and time to pick up my car, they did that work with only the diagnostic fee charge. They were unable to find anything wrong as far as a delayed start, claiming they were never able to reproduce the behavior. I have serious doubts that they did anything to try and reproduce behavior. They also made an appointment with me to drop the car off to have it looked at and then proceeded to not LOOK at my vehicle for a full week. This was not the local dealership's first bad straw, it was my last. It was already my last, and that was before they broke my door handle and told me they could fix it for $175 I think (I ordered the $17 part on amazon and fixed it myself in 10 minutes for free). I digress, but it is pertinent to note that I have a general distaste for Ford on large and a great distaste for my local dealer. I would LOVE to find a hybrid mechanic elsewhere, but that is proving difficult.

 

So the delayed start issue persists. it's been at least a tank of gas since picking up from the dealer (28 mpg), and today I decided to test it more and pay more attention. I drove around in 56degF for a good 40 minutes, and the temperature gauge never changed from white to green (it does change to green right, I'm not misremembering this?). The battery engine would not kick in, though of course the ICE cuts off when stopped or cruising downhill. The battery shows full charge, I'm unaware of any codes. I wonder if there's any chance I have yet another temperature sensor problem (another "spontaneously" loose wire??), and that is my entire problem. I'm not entirely sure how long the ICE has simply not been kicking in (and I also don't know where this relates to the delayed start that I was initially experiencing). You'd think the dealer when checking into this would have noticed if the battery power just wasn't kicking in, but I am not sure.

 

I live in Nashville, and if I'm stuck with a Ford dealer, I think my next action is to drive it down to Franklin and at least avoid the local guy. Personally, I feel like I'm already out ~$600 in lost gas mileage waiting for a recall, $150 in diagnostic fees, and $17 in my broken door handle-- doesn't make me want to go spend $400 to have a battery recalibrated or whatever, and if that were required it is hard to not feel like it's somehow Ford's fault.

 

So, venting complete, thanks for reading. I will listen to all advice and ideas, or at worst just add my complaint to the list and we will commiserate.


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#37 OFFLINE   proffitt25

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 03:46 PM

okay, I ran out to do more experiments. First, hooked up my OBD2, no codes or anything. I intended primarily to test more whether hitting the gas while holding the brake would fix the delayed start issue... I think it does help, but ultimately I still feel there's some unnecessary lag. The most interesting thing though is that my EM started working again. Hmm. It was actually working while the thermometer still showed white, and it did not take driving long this time for the thermometer to turn green (whereas 45 mins of driving earlier would not get it there). Again I haven't been paying super close attention, but thinking back, I feel like my HV battery has been showing full more often than not lately.. I think it just hasn't been getting used since the last pickup from the dealer. I know they did reset the PCM at some point to try and fix the issue, maybe I just needed to do something different, drive longer? to ensure it started cycling normally again? So many of my trips are the 5-10 min variety, and maybe that doesn't let the battery warm enough to get used most of the time and has kept it from re-entering some normalcy.

 

Anyway after the thermo went green I drove a while. Some things I notice: I do think I'm not getting the power from the battery I should. I managed to nearly drain the battery but it took some real work, finding flat places where I could drive 5 mph to get it as low as I could. I think I managed to get it up to 25 mph one time on a nice flat surface being as conservative as I could before the ICE kicked in. It's hard to say if this is totally new territory or if it's been like this for a year, but it's definitely not how it was when I first got the car. I then tried to get it back to full battery. First I sat at a stop sign with foot on brake and foot on gas. Again it only idles very low, and it only charged to perhaps 70% before it quit even doing that, the ICE just basically went off despite my foot on the gas. Interesting. I drove around a little while longer seeing if I could primarily use the ICE and regen brake to get it higher, but I couldn't. As a general rule it was going between 50-70%. Again I tested out battery power and it still seems underpowered. I'd be very interested to have some more discrete data about what's going on with the batteries. 

 

Finally when I got home I put it in park and then hit the gas to charge up. In that manner I got it filled back up. Interesting that in park it will allow the engine to rev to about 3000 rpm. I don't know if it's charging faster at 3000 rpm than 1000 rpm. 

 

Now I'll head out for another trip soon and see if overall the behavior is more what I would expect.

 

Again ultimately I think the laggy delayed start persists, and my suspicion is it's ultimately about the HV battery either being underpowered or the computer believing it's underpowered and not using its energy appropriately, getting only a small kick from the EV before the ICE kicks in and finally gets it moving for real.

 

Will report back...



#38 OFFLINE   proffitt25

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 05:14 PM

one more quick note. With normal driving attempted, right now I can't seem to get my HV battery below like 85%. It doesn't seem to have a lot of power so a takeoff is very slow if I keep it in EV and I can't get more than 25 mph or so. When I have drained 10% or so, inevitably I'll end up coasting downhill or something, and it starts recharging the battery. I don't know that this even makes sense: the HEV info screen shows only the electric motor on but shows recharging battery, and battery is in fact recharging... but how can the electric motor recharge the battery (no regen braking occurring)? It definitely doesn't seem to be behaving normally. I guess I should be happy that at least the battery is actually being used again?



#39 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 05:36 PM

There are two electric motors.  Either can be a generator or a motor.  The car tries to keep the HVB at 50% SOC so there is a place to store regen energy.  If the HVB gets to 100% SOC, regen is not possible since there is no place to put the generated energy.



#40 OFFLINE   proffitt25

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 11:55 PM

There are two electric motors.  Either can be a generator or a motor.  The car tries to keep the HVB at 50% SOC so there is a place to store regen energy.  If the HVB gets to 100% SOC, regen is not possible since there is no place to put the generated energy.

 

Hmm, ok. Yes I think it makes sense that the car wouldn't ideally cycle between 0 and 100%. Is that normal behavior, though, when I have a 70-80% full HV battery, and I begin to coast down a hill, to use an electric motor to charge the battery back up to 90%?

And... again, this doesn't make sense to me. An electric motor needs battery power to run. To use battery power to run an electric motor to charge a (the same?) battery.... isn't that nonsense? We'd have perpetual motion if we could work that out, wouldn't we?

 

If, perhaps you just mean there are two motors, one gas, one electric (as was my prior understanding), then it makes sense for the computer to kick the gas engine on to recharge the battery at appropriate intervals, but it still doesn't make sense that it would do it between 70-90% charge, that would just be unnecessary and hurt my gas mileage overall when I could run in EV mode longer with an opportunity to regain that energy at braking instead of with an ICE assist. Am I wrong?







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