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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Register your Fusion Hybrid at the official Ford authorized registry here.


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Get a $70 Rebate from Michelin for buying a set of tires by Sept. 20

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35 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 08:41 AM

 

This is what I have learned from researching the best tire pressure to use talking to the tire experts.

 

 

3. So what is the best, Ideally you don't want to exceed the Max Load Rating for the tire under hard braking, If you do it is like under inflating your tires to 25 psi which is bad and even Waldo doesn't think that is good. :)  Interesting that at 35 psi you can't step on the brakes hard and not go over the Max Load Rating for just a driver and gas in the car.  Curb weight 3668 lbs + 14 gal. 84 lbs + driver average weight 180 lbs = 3932 lbs x .70% = 2752 lbs braking weight for the front tires. Front tires are only rated for 2734 lbs, but at 51 psi pressure their rated at 2866 lbs, much safer and shorter stopping distance.

 

 

Paul 

 

You didn't learn any of this point #3 from tire experts, you are completely making it up in your own head.  The situation of "overloading under braking" is just not a real thing.  If it were, every car on the road would be blowing out tires at every stop light. The design and testing process of establishing the load ratings already accounts for this. There is no "safety" risk of running an FFH at 35psi and no "safety improvement" running them at 50psi.  

 

You have no data supporting shorter stopping distance.  Even wear does not correlate 100% to maximum grip.  As I said above and you still are ignoring, even wear just means your contact patch is good from left to right.  But higher pressure means it will be shorter, which reduces the amount of rubber touching the road overall, which means longer stopping distances.  There might be a sweet spot somewhere above 35psi and below 50psi where the maximum stopping distance is achieved, but it's going to be different for every tire, every vehicle and every road surface.  Without any real data we have to make generalizations and every tire expert will tell you as pressure goes up, grip goes down (within the normal range of the tire). 

 

BTW the wear on my FFH is pretty even and I've always kept them in the 35-40 range.  Only have around 40K miles on the car, so too early to say what the life will be, plus I've had one replaced due to puncture which has prevented me from rotating them in a "normal" routine.









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#22 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 06:58 PM

I had a long conversation with one of the tire testers at TireRack and he was the forth expert I told that I was using 50 psi. and was getting even tire wear at 85k miles on the tires. He said the goal is to use the right tire pressure that gets even tire wear which also gives the max traction for stopping. He also said most US Sedans (FFH/CMAX) Manufactures under inflate their tires for a smoother/ more compliant ride which explains FFH lower tire pressure than CMAX and CMAX's tires wearing on the edges. This would mean the best pressure range looking at tire wear for FFH/CMAX would be in the 42 to 51 psi. range to get Even Tire Wear. We would have to do a large number sampling of owners to measure tread depth, miles and psi to create a graph to figure out the optimum pressure to use.

 

You didn't learn any of this point #3 from tire experts, you are completely making it up in your own head.  The situation of "overloading under braking" is just not a real thing.  If it were, every car on the road would be blowing out tires at every stop light. This whole discussion started from you saying raising tire pressure from FORD recommendations would increase stopping distances.  The design and testing process of establishing the load ratings already accounts for this. There is no "safety" risk of running an FFH at 35psi and no "safety improvement" running them at 50psi.  And the experts disagree with you again, I wasn't getting even tire wear at 38 psi and I do at 50 psi. so there is a Safety Improvement. :)   

 

You have no data supporting shorter stopping distance.  Even wear does not correlate 100% to maximum grip. Tire Testing Expert said "Even Tire Wear does give maximum grip." As I said above and you still are ignoring, even wear just means your contact patch is good from left to right. This also isn't true, you get maximum grip when your contact patch has the same pressure psi on the road for each square inch, at 35 psi the tires are under inflated so you have more pressure at the edge of the tire and less in the center creating larger contact patch, but less traction. ;(    But higher pressure means it will be shorter, which reduces the amount of rubber touching the road overall, which means longer stopping distances.  There might be a sweet spot somewhere above 35psi and below 50psi where the maximum stopping distance is achieved, but it's going to be different for every tire, every vehicle and every road surface.  Without any real data we have to make generalizations and every tire expert will tell you as pressure goes up, grip goes down (within the normal range of the tire). REALLY! you are ignoring the Real Data Again.

1. FORD's recommend tire pressure is a minimum pressure, not Best for even tire wear. TireRack Testing Expert said this is common to under inflate tires on sedans and it shows with edge tire wear on CMAX at 38 psi.

2.  FFH has 35 psi and CMAX has 38 psi, they should have the same tire pressure or FFH should be higher because CMAX is lighter. FORD was going for ride quality, not best stopping distance.

3. All the experts say even tire wear gives maximum traction for stopping.

4. All the experts agree to use the tire pressure psi that achieves even tire wear.

 

BTW the wear on my FFH is pretty even and I've always kept them in the 35-40 range.  Only have around 40K miles on the car, so too early to say what the life will be, plus I've had one replaced due to puncture which has prevented me from rotating them in a "normal" routine. Have you measured the tread depth across the tires to get an accurate reading?

I checked a used 2013 FFH 39k mi. and 18" wheels which use 34 psi, the fronts inside and outside were worn about 1/32 more than the center and rears 1/32 more on only the outsides, don't think the tires had been rotated. With low miles and visually the tires had not been abused. 

 

I also measured my tire contact patch at 35, 38 and 50 psi by jacking up the front tire and putting it down on a piece of paper which was on a piece of plastic. The contact patch at 35 psi was about 15% larger than at 50 psi which was expected.  38 psi was 7% smaller. 

 

I agree with the Experts, it just makes sense scientifically FORD's are the lowest Tire pressure, not the best for even tire wear or traction.

 

Paul


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Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#23 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 09:21 PM

Guess we're coming down to the definition of "experts".  My 'Experts" are real life tire engineers, not customer service reps or retailers.  Never mind the many books I've read on the subject published by acknowledged industry experts.  That and the 20+ years I've actually worked in the automotive engineering field...


Edited by Waldo, 08 November 2018 - 09:24 PM.


#24 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 04:06 PM

Guess we're coming down to the definition of "experts".  My 'Experts" are real life tire engineers, not customer service reps or retailers.  Never mind the many books I've read on the subject published by acknowledged industry experts.  That and the 20+ years I've actually worked in the automotive engineering field...

And all My Experts are current Technology, not twenty years ago, Tire and Car Manufactures have made big advancements in technology in the last several years and our cars are an example of that.  I'm sure there are others wondering why you ignore the facts and some how we are suppose to believe you and yet you have no proof to backup your statements.  I have made a lot of effort to find answers from TireRack Tire Testers to the questions that we came up with.

You won't even measure your tire tread depth across your four tires and posted it and it would be nice for others to do the same so we compare the results.

 

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 09 November 2018 - 04:17 PM.

163299.png 600 Club

Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#25 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 11:18 AM

 

I also measured my tire contact patch at 35, 38 and 50 psi by jacking up the front tire and putting it down on a piece of paper which was on a piece of plastic. The contact patch at 35 psi was about 15% larger than at 50 psi which was expected.  38 psi was 7% smaller. 

 

I agree with the Experts, it just makes sense scientifically FORD's are the lowest Tire pressure, not the best for even tire wear or traction.

 

Paul

 

So now you're own data says that 50psi has a smaller contact patch, yet you still seem to think that 50psi has better traction.  Bigger contact patch = more traction.  This is a simple fact that "makes sense".  Not sure why you keep wanting to ignore it, it's a fundamental scientific fact that hasn't changed in 20+ years.



#26 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 07:14 PM

 

Waldo, on 13 Nov 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:snapback.png

 

So now you're own data says that 50psi has a smaller contact patch, yet you still seem to think that 50psi has better traction.  Bigger contact patch = more traction.  This is a simple fact that "makes sense".  Not sure why you keep wanting to ignore it, it's a fundamental scientific fact that hasn't changed in 20+ years

 

You are contradicting yourself now, in your Post#17 you said " I don't run 24psi because the load rating would not be nearly enough, and just like overinflating, the tire doesn't perform optimally."  But you just said:" Bigger contact patch =more traction" 24 psi has a bigger contact patch than 35 psi but " the tire doesn't perform optimally"  So Bigger contact patch doesn't necessarily mean more traction.  Maximum traction occurs when tires are "Properly inflated " as shown in example below. 

 

FFH/CMAX at 35 psi/38 psi are "Under Inflated" like the example below because using a tire tread gauge the tire edges are wearing faster than the rest of the tire. Interesting that you said you use " 35 to 40 psi" so obviously you also think the tires are Under Inflated too. Only the tires using 50 psi have even tire ware which is the definition of "Properly Inflated" as shown below. From the information we have I still go with I said before Properly Inflated will have 44 psi to 50 psi. to get even tire ware.

My Ford Service Mgr. is talking to FORD to see if we can get more info on tire pressures. In the OM it tells you to look at door jam to get the minimum recommended and don't exceed the tire Manufactures max pressure on the sidewall of tire. This would imply that you can use any pressure from 35 to 51psi. The tire experts at Michelin, Tire Rack and Discount Tire all agree with this statement.

 

 

 

 

onlineimageresize_com_TyrePressureDiagra

Attached File  TTread.JPG   158.09KB   0 downloads This is my Michelin Energy Saver AS using 50 psi since new with 80k miles on it and now has 85k miles going for 90K miles. As you can see it has even tire ware, definitely not Over Inflated.

 

Paul

 


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Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#27 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 06:01 PM

Another advantage of 50 psi it raises the ground clearance by 1/4" when measuring from the rim edge to the road.  38 psi gives you 1/10 of an inch more than 35 psi. Something to think about. :)

 

Paul


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Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#28 OFFLINE   ethermion

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 11:18 AM

Nuts.  Do not drink that Kool-aid.

 

To all normal people here, open the driver's door, check the sticker, and inflate as indicated.  People who are 100000x more smart on this issue made the sticker.  Trust 'em.

 

There is no special place in heaven for folks who saved a few MPGs, but arrive EARLY.



#29 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 12:57 PM

Nuts.  Do not drink that Kool-aid.

 

To all normal people here, open the driver's door, check the sticker, and inflate as indicated.  And all the "Real Experts" that Make, Test and Sell the tires say that is a minimum pressure and FORD says in the OM not to exceed the Max pressure located on the sidewall of tire which is 51 psi on Michelin Energi Saver so it sounds like FORD is OK with any pressure from 35 psi to 51 psi. Read your OM.   People who are 100000x more smart on this issue made the sticker.  Trust 'em. And this is a Ridiculous Statement.  Where's the Proof? This is totally Misinformation and you haven't shown any documentation to back this up.  POST# 26 is Pure Science and has documentation to back it up. We are looking for facts, not opinions. :) 

 

There is no special place in heaven for folks who saved a few MPGs, but arrive EARL  And how would know ?  I think you have been drinking a few to many Beers and are confused. :) 

In the endless quest of separating Facts From So Much Misinformation. :) 

 

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 18 November 2018 - 01:04 PM.

163299.png 600 Club

Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#30 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 02:03 PM

Another advantage of 50 psi it raises the ground clearance by 1/4" when measuring from the rim edge to the road.  38 psi gives you 1/10 of an inch more than 35 psi. Something to think about. :)

 

Paul

 

Raising the ground clearance has a negative effect on aero, which is a bad thing for fuel economy.



#31 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 06:13 PM

 

Raising the ground clearance has a negative effect on aero, which is a bad thing for fuel economy.

A 1/4 of an inch? not measurable difference in mpg's.  2014 I made 2.5" chin spoiler attached with Velcro, didn't see any improvement and dragged on a lot of driveways.  Not all ideas are good ones. ;(


163299.png 600 Club

Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#32 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 09:04 AM

A 1/4 of an inch? not measurable difference in mpg's.  2014 I made 2.5" chin spoiler attached with Velcro, didn't see any improvement and dragged on a lot of driveways.  Not all ideas are good ones. ;(

 

Good grief I thought you wanted to be scientific.  Nothing you've ever done is measurable scientifically.  I know of several Ford programs where the ride height has been lowered by 10mm on some versions of the vehicle specifically for fuel economy.  1/4in is absolutely measurable in a proper wind tunnel and over the lifetime of a vehicle it will make a difference in fuel consumed.  I will guesstimate though that it would not be a big enough difference to offset the benefit of the reduced rolling resistance.



#33 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 11:00 AM

 

Good grief I thought you wanted to be scientific.  Nothing you've ever done is measurable scientifically.  I know of several Ford programs where the ride height has been lowered by 10mm on some versions of the vehicle specifically for fuel economy.  1/4in is absolutely measurable in a proper wind tunnel and over the lifetime of a vehicle it will make a difference in fuel consumed.  I will guesstimate though that it would not be a big enough difference to offset the benefit of the reduced rolling resistance.

And I think all my testing has been Scientific with what I have to work with. I install something and then monitor my MPG's.  Back in 2013-14 many CMAXers did alot of Aerodynamic testing  from spoilers,air dams on the sides, more undercarriage covers, GasPods, rear window deflectors and on and on with even putting yarn on the body of the car to watch air flow. What I ended up with were the only workable solutions that I could come up with. 

Grill Covers and wheel covers and rear wheel well covers are worth 6 mpg., 50 psi .5 mpg, Premium 2 mpgThe car is to low to add anything on the bottom without it being destroyed right away. I'm currently replacing my ICE bottom cover from dragging on things so many times over 6 yrs. I'm positive that having the the extra 1/4" made some difference on hitting things on the road and parking lots. :)

 

Paul

 

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Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#34 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 02:16 PM

Interesting another data point, My 2016 F150 4X4 2.7L EOB has 28k miles, 265/60-18" tires and FORD recommended pressure is 35 psi, Max pressure of 51 psi.  I have running 50 psi about half of the time. Every time I get an oil change at FORD they lower pressure to 35 psi again and forget to raise them backup for awhile. I have 8/32's on the edges and 9/32's in the center, sound familiar it looks like FORD under inflates tires on trucks too.

 

Paul 


163299.png 600 Club

Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#35 OFFLINE   2014FordFusionSE

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 08:55 PM

My FORD Dealer can get Michelin Energy Savers set of four for $730 out the door and then add in $70 MasterCard rebate from Michelin takes it down to $660 which is a real good deal, but it is over Sept. 20  smile.png  I have 78k mi. on my Michelin's, but I think I can go to 85k mi. before I need to change.  I'm going to buy them now, but wait to change them till I need too. Normally it is a real good idea to have the alignment done to, but I'm getting such good wear I don't think the Dealer can do better. smile.png

 

I picked up the tires today and it came to $730.17 Total. I applied for a rebate at FordOwner.com and was notetied that I would get my $70 rebate in 6-8 weeks. smile.png

 

Paul

 

Back to the original topic :)

 

Costco currently has a $70 rebate on Michelins + 1c installation which results in a $129 discount.

Also, Discount Tire (or America's Tire) will match the deal.

 

A win-win deal to replace your tires. I plan to get Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ and try them out.

(Disclaimer: I don't work for any tire shops :))


272055.png


#36 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:48 PM

 

Back to the original topic :)

 

Costco currently has a $70 rebate on Michelins + 1c installation which results in a $129 discount.

Also, Discount Tire (or America's Tire) will match the deal.

 

A win-win deal to replace your tires. I plan to get Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ and try them out.

(Disclaimer: I don't work for any tire shops :))

It will be interesting to see what happens to your gas mileage and please post it here so others will know. :)

 

Paul


163299.png 600 Club

Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.






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