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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Register your Fusion Hybrid at the official Ford authorized registry here.


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Get a $70 Rebate from Michelin for buying a set of tires by Sept. 20

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33 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 28 August 2018 - 01:38 PM

My FORD Dealer can get Michelin Energy Savers set of four for $730 out the door and then add in $70 MasterCard rebate from Michelin takes it down to $660 which is a real good deal, but it is over Sept. 20  smile.png  I have 78k mi. on my Michelin's, but I think I can go to 85k mi. before I need to change.  I'm going to buy them now, but wait to change them till I need too. Normally it is a real good idea to have the alignment done to, but I'm getting such good wear I don't think the Dealer can do better. smile.png

 

I picked up the tires today and it came to $730.17 Total. I applied for a rebate at FordOwner.com and was notetied that I would get my $70 rebate in 6-8 weeks. smile.png

 

Paul


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#2 OFFLINE   i.Love.my.fusion

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:06 PM

Hi, I'm new to the site, so go easy on me  ;) :worship: 

 

I am looking into getting new tires for my 2014 FFH and I've been scouring the forum for everyone's preference on tires. I saw that you had mentioned the Michelin Energy Savers in multiple posts as being your favorite.

 

So I went on tirerack.com and checked them out. The total rating for them is 3.5 stars, but when I read the reviews, they are so mixed! People either love them or hate them.... Even the reviews of just Fusions or C-maxes there doesn't seem to be any consensus....

 

This will be my first tire change on this car. I don't mind paying the extra money for good tires, but it's hard to have high confidence now if people don't seem to like them.

 

My current tires (from previous owner/dealer) are cheap Fuzion UHP Sport A/S. The 57 reviews on tirerack pretty much agree that they (fuzion) are cheap and terrible. But I have ridden them extra hard (Driving it like a stock car :shift:  :rockon: .... apex cornering onto freeway, high speeds, rough roads/lots of potholes, etc) and I haven't had any complaints [besides a minor annoyance that started recently that they squeal when i am driving/turning in a parking lot going 5-10 mph (what the heck), probably because they are nearing the end of their tread life].

 

What are your thoughts? Are their bad ratings due to petty reasons, or lack of knowledge of tires...? What am I missing...

 

What are other good choices for tires for the FFH?



#3 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 09:58 AM

The Michelin's will give you the best MPG's and I run 50 psi in the tires.  I got 64k mi. on two sets and they weren't worn out, but I was going on long trips in the snow so I wanted maximum tread depth. On third set I just replaced two at 78k mi. and think I will make 90K mi. on other two. They handle real good at 50 psi  and get better as the tread wears down :shift:  :)

 

Paul 


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#4 OFFLINE   ethermion

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 11:51 AM

Also, checkout discounttiredirect.com.  Discounttire.com may be local to you.

 

Michelin is making 100k+ of those tires a year, so don't get worked up about 7 reviews (or whatever number it is).  Ford seems to like them, and they know more about tires than every body else on this forum combined.

 

And, please do not run 50 psi in your tires.  Check the sticker in the driver's side door jam, or the owner's manual and inflate to that psi.  We hate losing members...



#5 OFFLINE   thavil

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 12:39 PM

Also look at reviews on tirerack.com for Pirelli Cinturato P7 AS Plus tires. They are also energy saver tires. My dealer had this as an option along with the Michelin's. I'm on my 2nd set and love them. I run mine at 38psi with great results.


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#6 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 01:43 PM

We have been this way before but I will mention it again.  I talked to Michelin Customer Service and he said the best tire pressure is where you get even tire ware. The Michelin OEM tire has a Max pressure of 51 psi and he said he didn't have problem with me using 50 psi cold tire pressure.  Another lesser know fact is you should change the tire pressure depending on the load in the car.  You should have a higher pressure at gross weight as compared to empty weight. 

 

How long did your tires last running 38 psi? 80k - 90k miles?  Running 50 psi also improves MPG's. :)  I don't see any down side to this, but your choice to waste money on buying expensive tires more often.

 

Paul 


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#7 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 05:42 PM

I replaced the original Michelin Energy Savers with Michelin Energy Savers. I am happy with them. I shopped around and found the best price and then took that to my Ford Quick Lane and as they claim in their advertisements they beat the price. They rotate the tires for free when I go for my Quick Lane oil change. Makes it convenient and easy.


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#8 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 07:21 AM

We have been this way before but I will mention it again.  I talked to Michelin Customer Service and he said the best tire pressure is where you get even tire ware. The Michelin OEM tire has a Max pressure of 51 psi and he said he didn't have problem with me using 50 psi cold tire pressure.  Another lesser know fact is you should change the tire pressure depending on the load in the car.  You should have a higher pressure at gross weight as compared to empty weight. 

 

How long did your tires last running 38 psi? 80k - 90k miles?  Running 50 psi also improves MPG's. :)  I don't see any down side to this, but your choice to waste money on buying expensive tires more often.

 

Paul 

 

Yes we have been through this before and you still haven't followed up with my suggestion to call and talk to a different Michelin rep and see if they give the same advice!

 

It's true in Europe they recommend raising pressures for high load conditions, but that's because they drive at much higher speeds.  In North America, the manufacturers account for those high load conditions in the recommended pressure.  Although the physics would say that higher pressures increase load capacity, the "little known fact" is that the industry conventions in North America do not allow tire manufacturers to increase the load rating on tires beyond a certain PSI (it used to be 35psi on P-metric tires, not sure if that's been updated).

 

The down side is reduced grip in emergency situations, especially braking.  I still haven't seen you acknowledge that, let alone test it!



#9 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 05:29 PM

 

Yes we have been through this before and you still haven't followed up with my suggestion to call and talk to a different Michelin rep and see if they give the same advice!

 

It's true in Europe they recommend raising pressures for high load conditions, but that's because they drive at much higher speeds.  In North America, the manufacturers account for those high load conditions in the recommended pressure.  Although the physics would say that higher pressures increase load capacity, the "little known fact" is that the industry conventions in North America do not allow tire manufacturers to increase the load rating on tires beyond a certain PSI (it used to be 35psi on P-metric tires, not sure if that's been updated).

 

The down side is reduced grip in emergency situations, especially braking.  I still haven't seen you acknowledge that, let alone test it!

 

The right tire pressure will increase how long your tires will last, also with even tire wear you are getting the best handling and breaking because you are getting even pressure psi all over the contact surface.  I'm at 83K mi. so far, how many did you get on your tires?  Interesting that the FFH and CMAX weigh close to the same(CMAX is slightly lighter) yet Fusion door says 35 psi and CMAX is 38psi for the same Michelin OEM tire.  I Also checked with my local Discount Tire Mgr and he also agrees with me, it just plain makes sense. :)

 

Paul


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#10 OFFLINE   md13ffhguy

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 01:31 AM

 
The right tire pressure will increase how long your tires will last, also with even tire wear you are getting the best handling and breaking because you are getting even pressure psi all over the contact surface.  I'm at 83K mi. so far, how many did you get on your tires?  Interesting that the FFH and CMAX weigh close to the same(CMAX is slightly lighter) yet Fusion door says 35 psi and CMAX is 38psi for the same Michelin OEM tire.  I Also checked with my local Discount Tire Mgr and he also agrees with me, it just plain makes sense. :)
 
Paul

No, it doesn't! Handling does not improve as you overinflate your tires.

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#11 OFFLINE   ethermion

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 04:54 AM

No, it doesn't! Handling does not improve as you overinflate your tires.

Correct.  It just increases the odds that you will die in your car.



#12 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 07:40 AM

 

The right tire pressure will increase how long your tires will last, also with even tire wear you are getting the best handling and breaking because you are getting even pressure psi all over the contact surface.  

 

Paul

 

I somehow missed this, but it's important to point out that this is scientifically incorrect.  Increasing the tire pressure will always reduce the size of the contact patch.  This means you have less rubber on the road.  Even tire wear means your patch has good contact from one side to the other, but higher psi means that patch is much shorter front to back.  It's that front to back size of the patch that is important for braking grip (and snow and wet traction also).



#13 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 01:54 PM

 

The right tire pressure will increase how long your tires will last, also with even tire wear you are getting the best handling and breaking because you are getting even pressure psi all over the contact surface. 

This is not correct and this nonsense is not helpful to the forum.



#14 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 03:34 PM

 

I somehow missed this, but it's important to point out that this is scientifically incorrect.  Increasing the tire pressure will always reduce the size of the contact patch.  This means you have less rubber on the road.  Even tire wear means your patch has good contact from one side to the other, but higher psi means that patch is much shorter front to back. Not true, low profile radial tire contact area changes very little with tire psi. and on hard braking the car's weight transfers to the front tires requiring higher pressures to keep the back of the tire from pulling up and decreasing contact area.  It's that front to back size of the patch that is important for braking grip (and snow and wet traction also). Higher tire pressure is better to keep tires from hydroplaning in the rain , everyone know this.

Your science applies to bias ply tires, not low profile radial tires. As I said before:

"The right tire pressure will increase how long your tires will last, also with even tire wear you are getting the best handling and breaking because you are getting even pressure psi all over the contact surface.  I'm at 83K mi. so far, how many did you get on your tires?  Interesting that the FFH and CMAX weigh close to the same(CMAX is slightly lighter) yet Fusion door says 35 psi and CMAX is 38psi for the same Michelin OEM tire.  I Also checked with my local Discount Tire Mgr and he also agrees with me, it just plain makes sense.  :) Talked to TireRack today about running 50 psi in my Michelin's and getting even tire wear and 85k miles on them.  They were very impressed on the mileage and had no problem with running 50 psi.  So now that makes Michelin customer service, Discount Tire's Manager and Tire Rack saying if I'm getting even tire wear then 50 psi. is the right tire pressure to use to use.

You still didn't say how many miles you got on your tires, I'm at 85k miles on my fronts going for 90k mi. :)

No, it doesn't! Handling does not improve as you overinflate your tires.

52 psi is over inflating your tires, not 50 psi., 38 psi is FORD's recommended tire pressure. At 50 psi my tires don't squeal around corners, 38 psi. they do, outsides edges wear more which isn't good. ;(

 

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#15 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 09:42 AM

Tire wear is not the only thing I care about in my tires.  As I've said many times, emergency stopping distance is reduced at 50psi compared to 38psi.  Show me data to prove otherwise!



#16 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 05:08 PM

 

I somehow missed this, but it's important to point out that this is scientifically incorrect.  Increasing the tire pressure will always reduce the size of the contact patch.  This means you have less rubber on the road.  Even tire wear means your patch has good contact from one side to the other, but higher psi means that patch is much shorter front to back.  It's that front to back size of the patch that is important for braking grip (and snow and wet traction also).

If this was actually true Why don't you run 24 psi in your tires.

Tire wear is not the only thing I care about in my tires.  As I've said many times, emergency stopping distance is reduced at 50psi compared to 38psi.  Show me data to prove otherwise!

You show me the proof that the stopping distance isn't improved, you are making the wrong assumption that 35 psi gives you the best stopping distance and you don't know that for a fact.  FORD makes no claim it is the best, just recommends it. As I have said many times and tire sellers agree that even tire wear gives the best all around tire performance and longevity of the tire.

You still haven't answered my question why the FFH and CMAX weigh close to the same(CMAX is 20 lbs lighter) yet Fusion door says 35 psi and CMAX is 38psi for the same Michelin OEM tire. I guess FORD must of screwed up on that one. :) 

 

Just got off chatting with Michelin customer service about how much the Max weight on the tire goes down with the drop from 51 psi to 35 psi. They said 1433 lbs to 1367 lbs or a loss of 66 lbs/tire.  FFH Useful load + curb weight = about 4500 lbs.  So for the front tires with 60% of the weight that equal 2700 lbs and yet the Max weight for the tires at 35 psi is 2734 lbs,  Dangerously close to tire Max weight in a non moving condition.  In a hard braking condition the front load goes to 70% of the weight of the car or 3150 lbs/ 416 lbs over max tire load. ;(  At least at 50 psi  you gain 132 lbs of tire max load, a much safer driving condition. :) 

 

Given this info I don't know why anyone would drive their FFH with 35 psi in their tires, definitely under inflated, I would think you would want to have at least 44 psi anyways.

 

Paul

Attached File  IMG_3595.JPG   132.58KB   0 downloadsAttached File  IMG_3596.JPG   120.15KB   0 downloads


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#17 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 03:16 PM

If this was actually true Why don't you run 24 psi in your tires.

You show me the proof that the stopping distance isn't improved, you are making the wrong assumption that 35 psi gives you the best stopping distance and you don't know that for a fact.  FORD makes no claim it is the best, just recommends it. As I have said many times and tire sellers agree that even tire wear gives the best all around tire performance and longevity of the tire.

You still haven't answered my question why the FFH and CMAX weigh close to the same(CMAX is 20 lbs lighter) yet Fusion door says 35 psi and CMAX is 38psi for the same Michelin OEM tire. I guess FORD must of screwed up on that one. :) 

 

Just got off chatting with Michelin customer service about how much the Max weight on the tire goes down with the drop from 51 psi to 35 psi. They said 1433 lbs to 1367 lbs or a loss of 66 lbs/tire.  FFH Useful load + curb weight = about 4500 lbs.  So for the front tires with 60% of the weight that equal 2700 lbs and yet the Max weight for the tires at 35 psi is 2734 lbs,  Dangerously close to tire Max weight in a non moving condition.  In a hard braking condition the front load goes to 70% of the weight of the car or 3150 lbs/ 416 lbs over max tire load. ;(  At least at 50 psi  you gain 132 lbs of tire max load, a much safer driving condition. :) 

 

Given this info I don't know why anyone would drive their FFH with 35 psi in their tires, definitely under inflated, I would think you would want to have at least 44 psi anyways.

 

Paul

attachicon.gifIMG_3595.JPGattachicon.gifIMG_3596.JPG

 

I don't run 24psi because the load rating would not be nearly enough, and just like overinflating, the tire doesn't perform optimally.

Why is the Cmax 38 while the Fusion is 35?  Could be many reasons, but my best bet would be because Ford was able to round up the EPA fuel economy number by bumping up the extra 3 psi.  For example if the Cmax was testing at 39.45mpg at 35psi, by bumping up to 38psi they can get to say 39.55 so the advertiseable is 40 instead of 39.  But say the Fusion is coming in at 39.35.  Bumping up to 38psi takes it to 39.45 so the net effect on the advertiseable is zero, so Ford leaves the Fusion at 35psi because they know that is the better all around tire pressure.

 

The error in your load calculation is the 60% weight distribution at full load.  When you pile passengers and cargo into a Cmax, most of it goes on the rear wheels, not the front.  So at 4500lbs you're probably closer to 52% front (Front GAWR on my FFH is 2440, rear is 2250).  52% of 4500 is 2340lbs, so well within 2734lbs limit.  You can find the GAWR ratings on the sticker on the door jamb.  You should never be able to get over the Front GAWR unless you attach a snowplow to the front!

 

If I had access to a Tire & Rim Association Handbook I could look up the load ratings for a 93V tire.  The ratings are not specific to any tire, they are a standard that all tires must meet.  But last time I checked, the max loading was not allowed to increase above 36psi.  In other words, the rating for this tire at 35psi is 1367lbs, but at 36psi it is 1433lbs, at 37psi 1433lbs, at 40psi 1433lbs and at 50psi 1433lbs.  Not sure if those numbers are still correct, but I know it's not a linear relationship between 35psi and 50psi.



#18 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 04:11 PM

This should clarify things more.

 

I don't run 24psi because the load rating would not be nearly enough, and just like overinflating, the tire doesn't perform optimally.

 

 A Tire Rep. at Tire Rack explained that FORD's recommended tire pressure of 35 psi is a minimum pressure and Michelin's Max Pressure of 51 psi is the Maximum, so anywhere between those pressures is fine.  Owners Handbook says don't exceed Tire Manufactures Max pressure which implies you can use more than FORD's recommended minimum.

 

Why is the Cmax 38 while the Fusion is 35?  Could be many reasons, but my best bet would be because Ford was able to round up the EPA fuel economy number by bumping up the extra 3 psi.  For example if the Cmax was testing at 39.45mpg at 35psi, by bumping up to 38psi they can get to say 39.55 so the advertiseable is 40 instead of 39.  But say the Fusion is coming in at 39.35.  Bumping up to 38psi takes it to 39.45 so the net effect on the advertiseable is zero, so Ford leaves the Fusion at 35psi because they know that is the better all around tire pressure.

 

​This doesn't make sense, you only gain .5 mpg going from 35 psi to 50 psi and FFH and CMAX Hybrids were rated at the same 47/47/47mpg anyways , tire pressures haven't changed since 2012. Also FORD used the mpg numbers from FFH for the CMAX and there was a Big EPA Deal made out of that. So FORD didn't have actual MPG numbers for CMAX, nothing to compare too. 

 

The error in your load calculation is the 60% weight distribution at full load.  When you pile passengers and cargo into a Cmax, most of it goes on the rear wheels, not the front. I was talking about FFH not CMAX.  So at 4500lbs you're probably closer to 52% front (Front GAWR on my FFH is 2440, rear is 2250).  52% of 4500 is 2340lbs, so well within 2734lbs limit.  You can find the GAWR ratings on the sticker on the door jamb.  You should never be able to get over the Front GAWR unless you attach a snowplow to the front! 

 

So if you add FFH front GAWR and rear GAWR you get 4690 GVWR, then when you step on the brakes hard 70% of the GVWR transfers to the front axle which would be 3283 Lbs, then subtract  max load for the front tires at 35 psi of 2734 lbs which means you are 549 Lbs over the Max Load for the front tires or by 20%, which gets worse if you are also turning at the same time, outside tire could be 25% over Max weight, not good. ;(  At 50 psi you gain 132 Lbs/ 25%  to the over maximum useful load for the tires, which is at least a good improvement to the over Max Load for the front tires. :) 

 

If I had access to a Tire & Rim Association Handbook I could look up the load ratings for a 93V tire.  The ratings are not specific to any tire, they are a standard that all tires must meet.  But last time I checked, the max loading was not allowed to increase above 36psi.  In other words, the rating for this tire at 35psi is 1367lbs, but at 36psi it is 1433lbs, at 37psi 1433lbs, at 40psi 1433lbs and at 50psi 1433lbs.  Not sure if those numbers are still correct, but I know it's not a linear relationship between 35psi and 50psi.

 

 Talking to Michelin Rep it sounded like they were computing it, like they had a formula to determine it. With 30% less psi. than 51 psi, at 35 psi I would have thought there would have been alot less useful load for the tires. 

 

Paul


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#19 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 07:46 AM

Load ratings are for sustained loads, not the momentary spikes you see while braking or turning.  Overloading a tire isn't the same thing as overloading a piece of metal.  Tires don't just suddenly break in half.  Overloading creates heat, and it is that heat that causes failure.  And while it's true that braking and turning do cause heat, it doesn't last long enough to get the tire hot enough to fail.

 

Load isn't calculated by a formula, it's a chart you look up in a book.  As I said, it maxes out long before you get to 50psi.  You should ask the Michelin rep at what pressure is the max load rating achieved.  I expect they will say it is 36 or 38psi.  Either way, you really need to trust the Ford engineers who DO THIS FOR A LIVING!  There are entire departments at Ford who do nothing but verify the specs of the tires that are sold on Ford cars.  After the Firestone fiasco, you can bet that they still get a lot of scrutiny and are not going to make any mistakes.



#20 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 04:52 PM

Load ratings are for sustained loads, not the momentary spikes you see while braking or turning.  Overloading a tire isn't the same thing as overloading a piece of metal.  Tires don't just suddenly break in half.  Overloading creates heat, and it is that heat that causes failure.  And while it's true that braking and turning do cause heat, it doesn't last long enough to get the tire hot enough to fail.

 

 

Load isn't calculated by a formula, it's a chart you look up in a book.  As I said, it maxes out long before you get to 50psi.  You should ask the Michelin rep at what pressure is the max load rating achieved.  I expect they will say it is 36 or 38psi. 

I talked to Michelin again and they said that Max tire load is linear starting with 51 psi/ 1433 Lbs and going down to 35 psi/ 1367 Lbs max load.

Either way, you really need to trust the Ford engineers who DO THIS FOR A LIVING!  There are entire departments at Ford who do nothing but verify the specs of the tires that are sold on Ford cars.  After the Firestone fiasco, you can bet that they still get a lot of scrutiny and are not going to make any mistakes.

 

This is what I have learned from researching the best tire pressure to use talking to the tire experts.

 

1. All the Tire Experts I talked to said even tire wear is what you are trying to achieve and use the right tire pressure to get it.  You raise tire pressure if tires are wearing more on the edges, lower tire pressure if tire is wearing more in the center.

 

2. FORD's recommended tire pressure of 35 psi is a minimum pressure not to go under, (Firestone disaster ) and FORD also states not to go over the Max Tire pressure of 51 psi.   So it is safe to use a  pressure of 35 psi to 51 psi. using the FORD and Michelin tire specs.

 

3. So what is the best, Ideally you don't want to exceed the Max Load Rating for the tire under hard braking, If you do it is like under inflating your tires to 25 psi which is bad and even Waldo doesn't think that is good. :)  Interesting that at 35 psi you can't step on the brakes hard and not go over the Max Load Rating for just a driver and gas in the car.  Curb weight 3668 lbs + 14 gal. 84 lbs + driver average weight 180 lbs = 3932 lbs x .70% = 2752 lbs braking weight for the front tires. Front tires are only rated for 2734 lbs, but at 51 psi pressure their rated at 2866 lbs, much safer and shorter stopping distance.

 

4. Michelin Energy Savers AS are warrantied for 55k miles and at 50 psi I got 64.5k and 64k miles out of my first two sets which weren't worn down to the 2/32", I replaced them because I was going on long trips in snowy conditions and wanted max tread.  My third set I replaced the fronts at 78k because of puncture in sidewall. They could gone probably 3k more miles anyways. The rears I moved to the front and they currently have 85k miles and looks like they will make 90k mile unless I have to go on trip in snowy conditions. I don't see anyone getting more miles out of they're tires than I'm getting from mine, must be doing something right.. :)

 

For me the choice is easy, I'll pick safety, longevity and better MPG's at 50 psi over a little stiffer ride any day. :) 

 

Paul 


163299.png 600 Club

Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.






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