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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Defective mileage in my 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid Titanium


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49 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   md13ffhguy

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 10:00 PM

I'm coming from experience with 122K mi. on my CMAX, 64K on first set and 58K on second set so far and tires are wearing nice and even. Michelin's Max Cold air pressure is 51, so what's the problem here?  I know someone that has run 55PSI for along time, excessive to me. BTW there are alot of CMAX/FFH members using around 50psi in their tires and no one has commented on any problems.   :) 
 
Paul 

That's exactly the problem - you're coming from experience. Increasing pressure, even to that level, may affect handling and responsiveness. You have no idea if the person reading this has that type of awareness of their vehicle's handling. Surprisingly, many people don't understand the effects, and may have no idea how to adjust or react. So, making such a recommendation seems a little reckless. That's all I meant. Please don't take it personally.
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#22 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 09:12 AM

So the long and short of this is these cars have Great Brakes and 50PSI doesn't hurt it's stopping ability from my experience. :)

 

Paul  

 

You are drawing the wrong conclusion.  If you wanted to say "the car still stops great with 50psi" I would accept that, but how can you know that it wouldn't have stopped even faster at 38psi?  What if you'd been going 40mph?  The difference between 50 and 38psi might then have made the difference between you hitting the deer or not.


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#23 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 11:45 AM

 

You are drawing the wrong conclusion.  If you wanted to say "the car still stops great with 50psi" I would accept that, but how can you know that it wouldn't have stopped even faster at 38psi?  What if you'd been going 40mph?  The difference between 50 and 38psi might then have made the difference between you hitting the deer or not.

You could also say the inverse, the stop could be shorter at 50PSI.  The Manufactures 38psi rating is going to be a compromise between ride quality, wet and dry stopping, wet and dry corning and MPG.

 

I just talked to the Michelinman Concierge Service and I told him that I was interested in the contact patch area change from 38 to 50psi of my Michelin Energy Saver A/S tires.  He said he didn't know even know how to get that info, but the important thing was to get even tire ware across the tire which gives the maximum tire contact patch.  He said the Michelin Energy Savers have a 55K warranty and I told him I was using 50psi and got 64K mi. out of my first set and 58k mi. on my second set so far. On my first set there was only 1/64" difference in ware from the outside edge to the inside edge which he said was very good and recommend keep using 50psi in the tires! :)

So there you have it, Michelin rep recommends 50psi! :) BTW his # is 1-888-633-3339.  Also most members wouldn't notice a difference between 38 and 50PSI in their tires so try it out and let us know what you think. :)  

 

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Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#24 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 01:04 PM

The Manufactures 38psi rating is going to be a compromise between ride quality, wet and dry stopping, wet and dry corning and MPG.

Can you please tell us where you found the "manufactures 38psi rating"? As I indicated earlier the vehicle label on FFHs indicates 35 PSI.



#25 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 01:46 PM

Can you please tell us where you found the "manufactures 38psi rating"? As I indicated earlier the vehicle label on FFHs indicates 35 PSI.

My parents' C-Max Energi door sticker says 38 PSI. The Focus Electric door sticker says 38 PSI. The Fusion Energi door sticker says 35 PSI. All are running the exact same model of tire on the exact same size rims. We keep our tires at about 44-45 PSI at 60 F. Since tire pressure drops about 1 PSI for every 10 F drop in air temp, we run around the 38 PSI door sticker pressure in the winter when traction is reduced by snow/ice & a higher pressure in the summer when dry roads & warm temps yield better driving conditions.


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#26 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 05:32 PM

My parents' C-Max Energi door sticker says 38 PSI. The Focus Electric door sticker says 38 PSI. The Fusion Energi door sticker says 35 PSI. All are running the exact same model of tire on the exact same size rims. We keep our tires at about 44-45 PSI at 60 F. Since tire pressure drops about 1 PSI for every 10 F drop in air temp, we run around the 38 PSI door sticker pressure in the winter when traction is reduced by snow/ice & a higher pressure in the summer when dry roads & warm temps yield better driving conditions.

Interesting that all three cars weigh about 3600lbs with the FFH weighing the most yet it has the lowest tire pressure.  Still the Michelin Tire Rep said "Even tire wear to get the best tire mileage is what you are trying for". :)  :shift:

 

Paul


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Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#27 OFFLINE   md13ffhguy

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 09:44 PM

I'm sure the Michelin rep knows all about these cars and why Ford recommended the psi set to whatever and how braking, handling, ride and WEAR are affected by deviating from that recommendation. Or maybe he just wants you to buy Michelins...

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#28 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 08:32 AM

When Ford signs a contract with the tire supplier, they tell the tire company what the tire pressure is going to be, then the tire companies design the tire around that pressure.

 

Usually what it really comes down to is how close the fuel economy label is to rounding up to the next number.  Maybe the Fusion was coming out at 41.6 at 35psi, so it rounds up to 42, but the C-max was 39.4 at 35psi so putting it at 38psi bumped it up to 39.5, so it can round up to 40.

 

Even tire wear is nice, but it's not everything.  The shape of the contact patch and the size of the contact patch are different things.  Your higher pressure might be making the patch wider - or even side to side, but it is reducing it's length and reducing the overall size.  Simple math, higher pressure = less contact patch area.  Less area = less grip, especially in braking.


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#29 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 11:33 AM

Interesting that all three cars weigh about 3600lbs with the FFH weighing the most yet it has the lowest tire pressure.  Still the Michelin Tire Rep said "Even tire wear to get the best tire mileage is what you are trying for". :)  :shift:

 

Paul

I think the Fusion Energi weighs more than the Fusion Hybrid...

 

When Ford signs a contract with the tire supplier, they tell the tire company what the tire pressure is going to be, then the tire companies design the tire around that pressure.

 

Usually what it really comes down to is how close the fuel economy label is to rounding up to the next number.  Maybe the Fusion was coming out at 41.6 at 35psi, so it rounds up to 42, but the C-max was 39.4 at 35psi so putting it at 38psi bumped it up to 39.5, so it can round up to 40.

 

Even tire wear is nice, but it's not everything.  The shape of the contact patch and the size of the contact patch are different things.  Your higher pressure might be making the patch wider - or even side to side, but it is reducing it's length and reducing the overall size.  Simple math, higher pressure = less contact patch area.  Less area = less grip, especially in braking.

Thanks for your insights! It's really cool to learn these little tidbits about how the industry works. Many cars come with these same Michelin Energy Saver tires. How do the contracts work in cases like that where many different companies buy the same tires from MIchelin? Or are the tires not actually the same even though they appear to be?


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#30 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:19 PM

Or are the tires not actually the same even though they appear to be?

 

Exactly.  I remember when the Lincoln LS and the Thunderbird were both using Michelin something tires in exactly the same size.  They looked absolutely identical except for the DOT code, but were tuned completely differently.  If you put the LS tires on the T-bird you got a shaky mess and if you put the T-bird tires on the LS you got a soft marshmallow.  I once went to a local tire shop and they had one of each tire on the shelf.  I asked them if they knew the difference between the two and of course they did not, so the next customer was likely to get one of each on their car.

 

Another tidbit - Michelin offers around 12 different tire compounds to the OE customers to chose from, but in the aftermarket they only use 2.  So if you have a car that sells in fairly low volume or uses a unique size, you'll likely get leftover OE tires in the aftermarket, but if you have a higher volume car/tire, Michelin will move the aftermarket production to a different plant and use different compounds and construction.  The only way to tell for sure what you're getting is to check the DOT codes.


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#31 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 03:35 PM

 

Exactly.  I remember when the Lincoln LS and the Thunderbird were both using Michelin something tires in exactly the same size.  They looked absolutely identical except for the DOT code, but were tuned completely differently.  If you put the LS tires on the T-bird you got a shaky mess and if you put the T-bird tires on the LS you got a soft marshmallow.  I once went to a local tire shop and they had one of each tire on the shelf.  I asked them if they knew the difference between the two and of course they did not, so the next customer was likely to get one of each on their car.

 

Another tidbit - Michelin offers around 12 different tire compounds to the OE customers to chose from, but in the aftermarket they only use 2.  So if you have a car that sells in fairly low volume or uses a unique size, you'll likely get leftover OE tires in the aftermarket, but if you have a higher volume car/tire, Michelin will move the aftermarket production to a different plant and use different compounds and construction.  The only way to tell for sure what you're getting is to check the DOT codes.

I was curious about this so I call the Michelinman Concierge Service and asked them if there is any differences in the 225-50/17 Energy Savers A/S 93V for the different Car manufactures and he said there wasn't and the Tires you buy Retail are the same tire.  He also said that car manufactures will order a run of tires which Michelin will hold in reserve for that manufacture, but they are the same tire you get at the tire store. :)  If you have any questions call Michelinman Concierge # 1888-633-3339.

 

Paul


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Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#32 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 03:53 PM

Well what the Michelinman Concierge tell you and what the actual Michelin OEM engineers and account managers tell you might be slightly different.  As I said, the 225-50/17 Energy Savers A/S 93V may be low enough volume that they don't make a different version, but that's not true of every tire.


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#33 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 05:30 PM

Well what the Michelinman Concierge tell you and what the actual Michelin OEM engineers and account managers tell you might be slightly different.  As I said, the 225-50/17 Energy Savers A/S 93V may be low enough volume that they don't make a different version, but that's not true of every tire.

I would recommend you talk to Michelin, I think it is safe to say that Michelin has made atleast one million and maybe 2 million 225-50/17 Energy Savers A/S tires in the last 4 years.  They do make two versions 93V that we use and the more expensive 94V with max psi of 44, not as good and can't find out if anyone uses it. :) 

 

Paul 


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Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#34 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 08:02 AM

I spent several years of my life talking to Michelin every day.

 

Not sure how you're guessing at 1-2 million, the base Fusion uses a different tire so it's only the Hybrids that use them.  Ford has not sold anywhere close to 250,000 hybrids in the last 4 years.  Even so, 1 million tires over 4 years is pretty low volume for Michelin.


Edited by Waldo, 03 February 2016 - 08:04 AM.


#35 OFFLINE   tbranca

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 10:14 AM

I have a 2013 and 34 seems about right.  I have tried everything.  from running 55psi in tires.  even bought a new 12v battery because I was told that may help.  I do have to change the plugs every 20000 miles because they get fouled from soot.  ford dealer says that's normal.  


Edited by tbranca, 03 February 2016 - 10:14 AM.


#36 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 11:26 AM

It's not normal and your car is defective. It may be the one poster acdii got rid of. Escalate this problem up the appeals chain with Ford. Plugs do not need replacing until 100,000 miles and last a lot longer than that. Maybe you can contact acdii and see what his VIN number was.


Edited by lolder, 03 February 2016 - 11:29 AM.


#37 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 04:42 PM

I spent several years of my life talking to Michelin every day.

 

Not sure how you're guessing at 1-2 million, the base Fusion uses a different tire so it's only the Hybrids that use them.  Ford has not sold anywhere close to 250,000 hybrids in the last 4 years.  Even so, 1 million tires over 4 years is pretty low volume for Michelin.

This is not true, 100K CMAX Hybrids/Energi have been sold and More FFH/Energi have been sold. Also the FORD Focus Electric uses them. Some hybrid/Energi owners are on their second or third sets which should account for around a Million Tires. Talking the Michelin Concierge he said they are standard equipment for Chrysler, Hyundai, Nissan, Honda, Toyota and GM. He also mentioned it is a popular tire for the Hybrid/Gas mileage crowd. :)  It would be interesting to see what kind of tire wear and mileage members are getting at different pressures. :detective:

Paul


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#38 OFFLINE   jeffo65

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 06:28 PM

I have a 2013 and 34 seems about right.  I have tried everything.  from running 55psi in tires.  even bought a new 12v battery because I was told that may help.  I do have to change the plugs every 20000 miles because they get fouled from soot.  ford dealer says that's normal.  

I disagree with this statement. 

 

We have a 2013 SE and we are averaging 42.8mpgs for the lifetime of the car and routinely get over 45mpg.  We have had as high as 55mpg (summertime in town) and as low as 36mpg (wintertime on highway).

 

Plugs do not need to be changed untill 100,000 miles.  I have pulled a plug and had the dealer look at them during the last oil change and they still look fine.

 

Some of the 2013 Job 1 FFH had issues with mpgs and a number were purchased back from the dealer. 

 

I don't think the OP will be able to have that done since the car is 3 years old.


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#39 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 06:12 PM

Another tidbit - Michelin offers around 12 different tire compounds to the OE customers to chose from, but in the aftermarket they only use 2.  So if you have a car that sells in fairly low volume or uses a unique size, you'll likely get leftover OE tires in the aftermarket, but if you have a higher volume car/tire, Michelin will move the aftermarket production to a different plant and use different compounds and construction.  The only way to tell for sure what you're getting is to check the DOT codes.

I checked the DOT codes on the Energi & the Focus Electric. They're exactly the same. So it appears that in this case, the two vehicles have exactly the same tires.


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#40 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 08:13 AM

I checked the DOT codes on the Energi & the Focus Electric. They're exactly the same. So it appears that in this case, the two vehicles have exactly the same tires.

 

The Focus electric is so low volume that the program planners just went around to try to find the lowest rolling resistance tire in the company and just built the car around that.






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