35 replies to this topic

[nafzimo]

My 2013 Fusion Hybrid, built 10/31/2012, was making this grinding noise, seemingly when the regen braking was active.  It also started a loud whine when coming to a stop.  I drove it that way for about 1000 miles and took it to the dealer with 96,750 miles on the car.  They had it exactly two months while I drove the dealership's loaner.  I got it back today, finally fixed!  They told me parts back ordered but I suspect it was not looked at for the first 4 weeks (they told me at 2.5 weeks that they hadn't gotten it in yet).

The paperwork says:

SEE TSB 16-0105

REMOVE TRANS, DISASSEMBLE TRANS FOUND DAMAGE ON TRANSFER SHAFT BEARINGS.  INSTALL TRANSFER SHAFT KIT AND REINSTALL TRANS.  FLUSH FLUID COOLING SYSTEM.  TOP OFF COOLANT AND TRANS FLUID. SET FRONT TOE.  TEST DRIVE OK AT THIS TIME.

 

Hoping this was a permanent fix to the issue.  Any idea why they "SET FRONT TOE"?

[ptjones]

My 2013 Fusion Hybrid, built 10/31/2012, was making this grinding noise, seemingly when the regen braking was active.  It also started a loud whine when coming to a stop.  I drove it that way for about 1000 miles and took it to the dealer with 96,750 miles on the car.  They had it exactly two months while I drove the dealership's loaner.  I got it back today, finally fixed!  They told me parts back ordered but I suspect it was not looked at for the first 4 weeks (they told me at 2.5 weeks that they hadn't gotten it in yet).

The paperwork says:

SEE TSB 16-0105

REMOVE TRANS, DISASSEMBLE TRANS FOUND DAMAGE ON TRANSFER SHAFT BEARINGS.  INSTALL TRANSFER SHAFT KIT AND REINSTALL TRANS.  FLUSH FLUID COOLING SYSTEM.  TOP OFF COOLANT AND TRANS FLUID. SET FRONT TOE.  TEST DRIVE OK AT THIS TIME.

 

Hoping this was a permanent fix to the issue.  Any idea why they "SET FRONT TOE"?

The Front Toe may have been off from removing Trans or off before. Interesting that they are working on Trans now, Mine they just replaced.

 

Paul

[veffremov]

Our 2013 FFH 105k miles, built November 2012 - transmission failed with grinding noise. The car showed no check - engine light or other error signals. Car stopped in the middle of the street, unable to move. Turning the car off, then back on again - we were able to drive a block to the dealer. I can hear a loud grinding noise when the gas pedal was depressed. The dealer diagnosis was bad transmission, recommended installing a replacement to the cost of $8000 + tax. After some back and forth offered to lower the price to $5100 + tax.

 

Ford customer service rep refused any assistance with the repair, stating warranty had expired. I tried arguing that the problem appears to be factory/design issue, but the rep kept repeating "sorry sir, we have no programs that would enable us to assist you in any way".

 

For the record we has ESP up to 100k miles, expired Dec 2017 - we never made any claims on it. Car was fully maintained at Santa Margarita Ford all records are up to date.

 

So add one to the list. 

[lolder]

I rest my case against Ford, Texasota !

 

Since your car failed on the road, file a report with NHTSA here: https://www-odi.nhts...hicleComplaint/

Edited by lolder, 08 March 2018 - 10:03 AM.

[Texasota]

I rest my case against Ford, Texasota !

 

Since your car failed on the road, file a report with NHTSA here: https://www-odi.nhts...hicleComplaint/

 

This is indeed bad luck for veffremov. Sorry that you had this happen to your transmission at 5000 miles after the warranty.

 

According to Wikipedia Ford sold 37,270 FFHs in 2013 and 35,405 FFHs in 2014. For sake of argument lets assume the Wikipedia numbers are "ball park" accurate. That means there are 72,675 FFHs that were sold that possibly have the issue causing the transmission failure. Only Ford knows what the failure rate is on these transmissions but it does not even show up as a blip in Consumer Reports reliability data. It is probably reasonable to assume that the failure rate is a low single digit percentage. Of that small percentage it is probably a tiny fraction of them that have not been repaired under the 8/100,000 hybrid component warranty. Veffremov may be the first one reported on this forum (I don't recall others). From everything I have seen Ford has been very good about replacing these transmission when they fail under the warranty period. I suspect PT and others would agree.

 

Among your dozens of emotional and repetitious posts regarding this subject you have stated over and over that Ford should issue a recall. I assume your argument is that Ford should recall all of those 72,675 FFHs and replace the transmissions free of charge because a minuscule fraction of them might fail after the 8/100,000 hybrid component warranty. Is that your "case"? Really? If that is your "case", then in my opinion it is an absurdly ridiculous demand/expectation.  No car company or other manufacturer in their right mind would do such a thing. At lease not ones that want to remain financially viable. If it was a safety issue that puts peoples lives at risk such (such as the Takata air bags), then you would clearly have a "case" for a recall. But this is clearly not a safety issue and you are lost out in the weeds.

 

Ford provided a "good will" warranty extension and reimbursement (for costs previously paid outside of warranty) regarding the Ford Focus transmission problem. Perhaps they might do something like that for the 2013/2014 FFHs but I would be surprised given that Ford's warranty of 100,000 miles is already very impressive. It was a factor in my decision to purchase my 2015 FFH. Cars are getting more reliable but transmission failures still happen. Chrysler has had some very bad history with their minivan transmissions. Veffremov will have to shell out $5100 and that is painful but it appears to be on the low end of the average cost ($4000-$8000 is a typical range for new transmissions).

 

For some reason this subject has caused a deeply emotional and bordering on irrational reaction in you which is tough understand given that you don't even own one of these cars. You have clearly expressed your opinion regarding this issue dozens and dozens of times. Maybe consider giving it a rest? Or at a minimum consider simply providing a link to any one of your previous posts when you feel the need?

[ptjones]

Our 2013 FFH 105k miles, built November 2012 - transmission failed with grinding noise. The car showed no check - engine light or other error signals. Car stopped in the middle of the street, unable to move. Turning the car off, then back on again - we were able to drive a block to the dealer. I can hear a loud grinding noise when the gas pedal was depressed. The dealer diagnosis was bad transmission, recommended installing a replacement to the cost of $8000 + tax. After some back and forth offered to lower the price to $5100 + tax.

 

Ford customer service rep refused any assistance with the repair, stating warranty had expired. I tried arguing that the problem appears to be factory/design issue, but the rep kept repeating "sorry sir, we have no programs that would enable us to assist you in any way".

 

For the record we has ESP up to 100k miles, expired Dec 2017 - we never made any claims on it. Car was fully maintained at Santa Margarita Ford all records are up to date.

 

So add one to the list.

This is the first case that I have heard of a trans problem where the car actually stopped on all three forums I visit. I know I drove on the fwy for 1100 miles after the trans started making noise, car was running fine, but noise was getting louder.  I would say your case is very rare and it is too bad you didn't extend your warranty like I did, as it turned out I didn't need too because it failed at 98k miles. I knew mine was going to fail because I was monitoring TFT and was seeing a gradual rise in temps for the prior 2-3 months. Sorry to hear about your problems and would recommend you find a Dealer that has replaced several so they don't have to learn on yours.   I have heard that some of the transmissions have had minor repair work done, but don't know anything about it.  Good Luck

 

Paul

Edited by ptjones, 28 November 2018 - 10:02 AM.

[lolder]

These transmissions have been failing since manufacturing began of the 2013 Ford transmissions. It is a manufacturing defect, not wear and tear. Transmissions shouldn't fail before 150,000, 200,000 miles. If Ford does not know which parts are faulty and if indeed a small percentage of them have failed particularly out of warranty it would cost little for them to extend coverage well past 100,000 miles. They haven't ! The 2010-12 FFHs, the 2015+ FFHs are all great cars. The 2013-14 can be lemons because of this problem and the HVAC duct mold problem. We will forever disagree about this and I am not irrational about it. I know of no Aisin transmissions in the pre 2013s that have had this problem. The design is such that they should outlast automatic transmissions several times over. Cab companies tearing down first generation Escape hybrid transmissions ( Aisins ) at 350,000 miles report they look new. This recent failure is proof Ford is waiting out the warranty expiration on this issue ( so far ). 

 

I don't own one but I know all about it and my efforts are to encourage the "squeaky wheel to get the grease".  This is a forum for owners, not Ford. What are your efforts?

Edited by lolder, 09 March 2018 - 12:16 AM.

[ptjones]

Here is a Link to trans failures on CMAX Hybrid site for all FFH, CMAX Hybrid and Energi's.   http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/5288-mileage-and-build-date-for-ecvt-that-have-failed/page-1 as you can see only 23 documented failures total and it would appear the first failures where in 2014. If owners want longer coverage they can buy it like I did. I think 8yr/100k mi. is very reasonable.  I have 187k miles on my 2013 CMAX Hybrid and any problems I have had were covered under the warranty. There have only been a few people that have had trans problems past 100k miles and almost all CMAX Owners love their cars and I think the same can be said for FFH Owners. I don't see a real problem here IMO.

 

Paul

[lolder]

We all love these cars until we have a $5000 repair bill in mid life of the car. 100,000 miles is mid-life now. This is an anecdotal forum without valid statistics so its hard to project rate of problems onto the entire fleet but I still think there are far too many failures. The 2013s also had the case seam oil leaks and the minor drive shaft "clicks". A neighbor has admired my 2010 for some time. He told me about a really cheap deal offer on a low mileage 2013 and I told him about the problems and unless the transmission had been repaired to avoid it. He just got a great deal on a loaded 2017 Titanium.

[Texasota]

Lolder, an 8/100,000 warranty on the transmission and hybrid components is a stunning factory warranty. Even more so when you consider that the average length of time a new car is kept in the US is 71.4 months. How long do you feel an auto manufacturer should be on the hook for free repair or replacements? Should it be 150,000 miles, 250,000 miles or maybe make it an even 500,000 miles? And you did not answer my question, is recalling 72,675 FFHs and replacing the transmissions free of charge what you are demanding? If it is, then say so.

 

I'm kind of slow to figure this out but its becoming clear where all your emotion is coming from. Ford redesigned your beloved Aisin transmission and shipped a defect that is causing a tiny percentage of the 2013 and 2014 models to require a warranty replacement. Because of this Ford must be punished, they must pay a price and as you stated in another one of your "over the top" posts we all need to stop purchasing Ford products.

 

No, whipping yourself up into this frothy lather over a problem in a car that you don't own is not rational. Ford is honoring the warranty and replacing the transmissions that have a problem. There is no major unresolved issue here. Good grief, get over it.

 

These posts have reminded me of the pitfalls of being an early adopter of a new model (or redesign). Consumer Reports has consistently recommended waiting a couple of years before buying a new model (https://www.consumer...ty-survey-2017/). I was an early adopter of the 2012 Ford Focus and that was a huge mistake. I learned my lesson the hard way and waited two years for the 2015 FFH.

[tuxedohybrid]

I am wondering if there are any updated statistics on the failure of the 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid transmissions as of late that others may be able to share.

 

I have a '13 FFH with almost 110,000 miles on it and have not serviced the transmission or had it replaced. The only issue I notice is that on occasion is that when shifting into reverse when leaving work, I will occasionally hear a very brief noise that sounds like 3 knocks/chugs. I have chalked this up to being parked on an incline in a parking ramp, and don't notice it hardly ever when parked on a flat service.

 

In talking with a local transmission mechanic about our other vehicle ('10 Ford Escape), I mentioned the FFH and asked about what service I may need to do to reduce upcoming expenses, thinking that I may be approaching the time for some service. He said it was probably about time to have it serviced (about $300-$350). He also asked if I plan to keep it, as his recommendation is to run, not walk, to trade it in because of the known issues with the eCVT transmissions.

 

What would others recommend? KBB only values the vehicle at $4k-$5k and it is paid off, and it seems like reading through various threads that the transmission replacement could be $4k-$7k. I do not have any sort of extended warranty.  Thanks in advance for guidance on the FFH transmission or statistics about transmission failures.

[lolder]

There is no servicing for the transmission. There are no "tune-ups" required anymore. Follow the maintenance schedule in the Owners guide. I'd sell or trade it in before the transmission goes. Despite Texasotas comments these Ford transmissions are unreliable because of bearing failures. The Japanese Aisin transmissions they are based on go hundreds of thousands of miles without problems. Cars shouldn't have engine or transmission problems for 150-200K miles today. The nature of the Aisin/Ford eCVT is it should outlast the car. There's nothing but bearings and gears in it; no torque converters, clutches, solenoids, valves, bands. All the delicate control is provided by software and electronics. Bearing technology is old. Why Ford has the problem is unknown. Lack of lubrication at higher speeds is one suggestion as the non-plug in FFHs lack an additional oil pump present in the plug ins and early in production Ford raised the maximum EV speed of the FFH to 86 mph to match the plug in. The non-plug in FFH transmission oil pump only operates when the ICE is running. The plug-in, all the time.

 

See post #31 from bill538 here: http://fordfusionhyb...e-2#entry108775

Edited by lolder, 28 November 2018 - 11:09 AM.

[ptjones]

It appears to me that it was a heat treating the bearing problem, Energi's failed too so it wasn't a lube problem either. It would explain why some failed in the 10k miles and like mine at 98k miles and my new trans has 117k mi. and doing fine. Keep in mind that the Trans has two motor/generators in it too and is part of the reason they're so expensive. It would appear that most of the trans's that are going to fail have done so any future ones will have over a 100k miles and out of warranty.

 

Paul

[lolder]

There's two over 100K here in this forum in the last week or so. Ford probably saved $0.89 per bearing by going to a cheaper supplier.

[ptjones]

There's two over 100K here in this forum in the last week or so. Ford probably saved $0.89 per bearing by going to a cheaper supplier.

Definitely a quality control problem.   Does appear that they fixed it.

 

Paul

[voltekhybrid444]

Hello everybody this is my first post here as I mostly work on Toyotas. I had a customer bring in a '14 FFH today, he had brought it to a transmission shop because there was a loud whine noise that seemed to be getting worse and sounded like it was coming from the trans. The techs at the trans shop couldn't find any issues with the brakes, steering/suspension, trans so they referred him to me. From their descriptions, the noise happens as described in TSB 14-0176, however on his 45 min drive to my shop the noise suddenly went away, when I drove it I could still hear it but he said it was much louder before. The trans shop already went through all the brakes, steering/suspension, motor mounts and couldn't find any issues. The car drives great and doesn't have any DTC's. 

 

After reading all the threads on here I think a trans failure is possible, this FFH has 108k and we're in MI so no CARB here. I gave him the TSB number and told him to take it to the Ford dealer in his area and tell them he's having the same issue described in the TSB and to have them do a diagnostic to determine if this is a trans failure. If it is and they won't cover it, then i've already located a used trans in our area that I can install. I'm just trying to save him some money, since there's a TSB on this I figured it's worth a shot to see if they will pay for it.

 

I will update on here as this develops, thanks for the great website!