Buying a Hybrid: FFH vs HAH vs TCH

[mrcultureshock]

Hi all,

 

I'm in the market of a midsize hybrid and my choices are the HAH, TCH, and the FFH. I've already test driven the Accord (twice) and the Camry and the Fusion would be next.

 

Technology-wise Fusion wins hands down. It has things that the other 2 don't. I really like this about the Ford; it shows they're innovating instead of resting on their laurels. The Fusion is also quite a looker which is a bonus.

 

The Accord has excellent fuel economy and a nice exterior but the the technology (esp the infotainment system) is a confusing mess and the engine is loud when accelerating.

 

The Camry is quiet and smooth but it's quite bland. The infotainment system is much better than Honda IMHO. Toyota would be a conservative option.

 

So what do you guys thing I should check when I test drive the Fusion? Also, what has the reliability been like for your FFH?

 

Many thanks in advance!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cobra348]

Okay - as a comparative rookie in here (I've had my FFH for 2 months) I see that you're looking at appearance, ease of use (at least infotainment), quietness and mileage. I would add just overall fit and finish (outside and in) and perhaps cargo capacity (see below).

 

My FFH is the first hybrid I've ever had and I didn't even consider any others other than to compare pricing on comparable setups. Ummm, Ford won in that category too. Plus I was coming from a Ford 4-banger (Fiesta) ... so I'm prejudiced.

 

I would think that other than fit/finish consider what you will be using it for ... long trips, city runs for groceries, etc. If trips where luggage for multiple persons is being taken, consider trunk space as well. But ultimately you are looking for a car that fulfills YOUR needs.

 

Again, I'm prejudiced ... get a Ford. :thumbsup:

 

No issues with my car as yet ... lifetime MPG is 44.4 with a high MPG of 48.19 on one tank. This is for slightly over 4700 miles in the 2 months.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Cobra348

[jadei]

 

 

So what do you guys thing I should check when I test drive the Fusion? Also, what has the reliability been like for your FFH?

 

I've had my 2015 FFH SE for a month. Really the only thing I wish I had, and maybe it isn't worth it, was the adaptive cruise control (ACC). If you plan to put a lot of highway miles on your new car it might be something to consider. Another option you might want if you park alot in the city is front parking sensors as well the rear sensors/rear camera.

 

You also should fold down the back seats to get an idea of what you can fit in the trunk/rear seat area if that matters to you.

 

Another thing to consider is interior color. Darker interiors will need more A/C to cool down on a hot day which means using more energy from the high voltage battery and a little less MPG.

 

Also, from reading in this forum, the 17 inch wheels have slightly better MPG than the other bigger wheels. It's not much difference but does affect it enough to see in people's MPG here.

Edited June 15, 2015 by jadei

[lolder]

The HCH is not a planetary gear eCVT hybrid like all the Fords, Toyotas and Lexus. Those eCVT hybrids are a superior design for a hybrid but Honda has a reputation for excellent cars.

[mwr]

I've had my 2015 FFH for seven months and 10,000 kioles. Not one problem.

[machoman1337]

I bought a secondhand 2013 FFH - it had an original registration date of August 2012, so it's among the very first cars to roll off the production line when this car was first launched, and hence far more likely to have problems than a brand new 2015/2016 model.

 

I haven't had a flawless experience as you can see here: http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/10102-1-year-ownership-anniversary/?do=findComment&comment=96822However none of those problems were serious - the car has never been rendered undriveable in any way. I've put over 14,000 km on it since I bought it and it feels as good as new.

 

I'll admit that the TCH and HAH are probably safer if you're super paranoid about reliability, but the FFH has not disappointed me so far and at the very least, it's better than the average German cars. The rule of thumb is Japanese > American >>>> German for reliability.

 

The FFH's advantages are technology (as you found out) and storage - the rear seats fold down like a normal car and so the hybrid battery doesn't compromise the storage space as much as in the TCH and HAH.

 

When you test drive the FFH, ask the dealer to let you try both the SE and Titanium models. The quality of the leather in the SE (part of the Luxury package) is noticeably different from the quality of the leather in the Titanium (it comes standard). In my opinion, the Titanium's leather is far superior - softer and plusher all around. I drive an SE and didn't realize the leather was different in the Titanium until I sat in one at an auto show. The Titanium also comes with a superior sound system - I'm no audiophile and honestly can't tell the difference, and I'll just say that the SE's sound system is good enough for me.

 

Also the MyFordTouch system is great when it comes to features, but a bit of a letdown in performance... it's nowhere near as bad as it was a few years ago, but the response and processing times leave something to be desired (even my dad's 2009 Lexus has faster response, though on the flipside the Lexus system is a POS in terms of features and user-friendliness).

 

If you're willing to wait till next summer (2016), then Ford will introduce the QNX-based infotainment system to replace MyFordTouch. I've seen videos of the QNX system and it's a zillion times better - it even sports an iPad-esque capacitive screen that allows you to swipe and pinch like on a phone.

 

I assume you're buying brand new? If not, 2013/2014 used are safe bets, but have a few annoying flaws that were corrected for 2015:

- Passenger seat on 2013/2014 models can't be raised. Only reclined and moved forward/backward. I wish I could rip out the seat and replace it with one from a 2015 model!

- The turn signal lever on 2013/2014 models can be confusing to first time drivers - you push it to the first click for a 3-click self canceling signal, and push it all the way past the click for a full signal. On 2015 models, pushing it to the click now activates a normal signal.

- Early 2013 models were loud when you stepped on the gas. Newer cars have mufflers on the air intake tube to mitigate this.

[CCalvinN]

I've had my 2015 Fusion HyTi just over 4 months now and have just a touch under 10,000 miles on it. I have had zero problems with it.

 

When you give one a test drive, be sure to play around with the MyFordTouch infotainment system. People seem to either love or hate it I'm in the former category as I adore the way it looks. It does have a little slow response which can make it annoying, but most of the features I use can be controlled through the voice system. The only time the slowness affects me is in some of the HVAC settings which are only available through the touch screen.

 

Beauty is of course in the eye of the beholder, but I don't think that comparing the Fusion to the Accord to the Camry is a fair fight. Inside and out the Fusion is just a better looking car.

[hybridbear]

Since we're all Fusion owners we're going to be biased toward the car we own. A few high level things to consider:

• Only the Fusion offers Lane Keep Assist, the others only have a warning
• Automatic High Beams are fantastic and I think only the Fusion has that feature
• Rain sensing wipers are also fantastic and I think only the Fusion has that feature

We've had some extensive discussions comparing the HAH & TCH to the FFH. Here are a couple threads you might like reading for more detailed analysis of the differences & similarities:

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/5940-toyota-camry-hybrid-vs-ffh/

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/7025-new-2014-honda-accord-hybrid/

 

Finally, have you considered the Fusion Energi? With the $4007 tax credit you may be able to get an Energi for little more than the Hybrid. We absolutely love our Energi and find it's much nicer than the hybrid due to the electric operation. You do sacrifice some trunk space, but the HAH & TCH don't have folding rear seats so it sounds like trunk space may not be a big issue for you. I can't praise the Energi enough.

[mrcultureshock]

Yes, what the Fusion offers in terms of technology is very impressive and it's one of the things that's really appealing to me.

 

Regarding going for the Energi version, I've considered it but my commute is a too long (70 miles roundtrip) to make it worth it. Hybrids would be the best option for me.

 

I'd love to have a big trunk (My '07 Sentra has a humongous trunk) but I know I need to compromise because of the battery location. The trunk of the Honda is tiny. The one in the Toyota is much better and I've yet to see the trunk of the Fusion. I hope it compares well with the Camry's.

 

 

Since we're all Fusion owners we're going to be biased toward the car we own. A few high level things to consider:

• Only the Fusion offers Lane Keep Assist, the others only have a warning
• Automatic High Beams are fantastic and I think only the Fusion has that feature
• Rain sensing wipers are also fantastic and I think only the Fusion has that feature

We've had some extensive discussions comparing the HAH & TCH to the FFH. Here are a couple threads you might like reading for more detailed analysis of the differences & similarities:

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/5940-toyota-camry-hybrid-vs-ffh/

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/7025-new-2014-honda-accord-hybrid/

 

Finally, have you considered the Fusion Energi? With the $4007 tax credit you may be able to get an Energi for little more than the Hybrid. We absolutely love our Energi and find it's much nicer than the hybrid due to the electric operation. You do sacrifice some trunk space, but the HAH & TCH don't have folding rear seats so it sounds like trunk space may not be a big issue for you. I can't praise the Energi enough.

[mrcultureshock]

I'm a bit worried about MyFord Touch because Ford is dumping it for Sync 3 and due to all the negative comments I've read online (CR really hates it). I wish I could wait and get the 2017 FFH but I'd much rather get the car in the next few months. But MFT can't be much worse than Hondalink, right? The 2 times I used the dual-screen Hondalink in the HAH convinced me that I'd hate to use it. It's obtuse, repetitive, confusing, and in some areas just behind the times (use of HDD). MFT should be much better I'd hope.

 

 

I bought a secondhand 2013 FFH - it had an original registration date of August 2012, so it's among the very first cars to roll off the production line when this car was first launched, and hence far more likely to have problems than a brand new 2015/2016 model.

 

I haven't had a flawless experience as you can see here: http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/10102-1-year-ownership-anniversary/?do=findComment&comment=96822However none of those problems were serious - the car has never been rendered undriveable in any way. I've put over 14,000 km on it since I bought it and it feels as good as new.

 

I'll admit that the TCH and HAH are probably safer if you're super paranoid about reliability, but the FFH has not disappointed me so far and at the very least, it's better than the average German cars. The rule of thumb is Japanese > American >>>> German for reliability.

 

The FFH's advantages are technology (as you found out) and storage - the rear seats fold down like a normal car and so the hybrid battery doesn't compromise the storage space as much as in the TCH and HAH.

 

When you test drive the FFH, ask the dealer to let you try both the SE and Titanium models. The quality of the leather in the SE (part of the Luxury package) is noticeably different from the quality of the leather in the Titanium (it comes standard). In my opinion, the Titanium's leather is far superior - softer and plusher all around. I drive an SE and didn't realize the leather was different in the Titanium until I sat in one at an auto show. The Titanium also comes with a superior sound system - I'm no audiophile and honestly can't tell the difference, and I'll just say that the SE's sound system is good enough for me.

 

Also the MyFordTouch system is great when it comes to features, but a bit of a letdown in performance... it's nowhere near as bad as it was a few years ago, but the response and processing times leave something to be desired (even my dad's 2009 Lexus has faster response, though on the flipside the Lexus system is a POS in terms of features and user-friendliness).

 

If you're willing to wait till next summer (2016), then Ford will introduce the QNX-based infotainment system to replace MyFordTouch. I've seen videos of the QNX system and it's a zillion times better - it even sports an iPad-esque capacitive screen that allows you to swipe and pinch like on a phone.

 

I assume you're buying brand new? If not, 2013/2014 used are safe bets, but have a few annoying flaws that were corrected for 2015:

- Passenger seat on 2013/2014 models can't be raised. Only reclined and moved forward/backward. I wish I could rip out the seat and replace it with one from a 2015 model!

- The turn signal lever on 2013/2014 models can be confusing to first time drivers - you push it to the first click for a 3-click self canceling signal, and push it all the way past the click for a full signal. On 2015 models, pushing it to the click now activates a normal signal.

- Early 2013 models were loud when you stepped on the gas. Newer cars have mufflers on the air intake tube to mitigate this.

[mrcultureshock]

Fusion is indeed a looker. I do also like Accord's serious look and its LED headlights.

 

I've had my 2015 Fusion HyTi just over 4 months now and have just a touch under 10,000 miles on it. I have had zero problems with it.

 

When you give one a test drive, be sure to play around with the MyFordTouch infotainment system. People seem to either love or hate it I'm in the former category as I adore the way it looks. It does have a little slow response which can make it annoying, but most of the features I use can be controlled through the voice system. The only time the slowness affects me is in some of the HVAC settings which are only available through the touch screen.

 

Beauty is of course in the eye of the beholder, but I don't think that comparing the Fusion to the Accord to the Camry is a fair fight. Inside and out the Fusion is just a better looking car.

[machoman1337]

MyFordTouch is much better than Honda/Acura's infotainment, when it comes to user friendliness, ease of navigating between specific sections, and aesthetics. The quadrant layout is quite a smart design IMO - makes it very easy to hop back and forth between climate, audio, phone, and navigation.

 

The only real problem as of mid 2015 is the lackluster performance - especially when you key in a street address, it can take a second to respond. I don't understand how Ford could have got this part wrong. I owned a 2008 Fusion with the first generation of Sync and its touch screen had a more than acceptable response time and overall performance, so it's not like Ford hasn't had experience before. At least Sync3 is fast so better late than never.

 

One thing to note is that you can get MFT without getting the navigation system. I rarely touch the MFT screen except to actually key in a destination - there are dedicated buttons for most other functions and the steering wheel controls handle the phone system exceptionally well. So if you opt out of getting nav, or you intend to just use a phone or portable GPS whether you get nav or not, you won't really experience any frustration with MFT as you won't be spending a lot of time tapping away at its screen.

 

The trunk of the FFH isn't any worse than the Camry's. But the FFH has the advantage of allowing you to fold down the rear seats to increase storage capability. It can mean the difference between being able to drive home from IKEA with your new purchases, or being forced to pay for delivery. I can't say that the battery hump hasn't been a hindrance at times though. I often travel with full sized bags which have the ability to be "fattened" by unzipping an outer "compartment", and if I "fatten" the bag it cannot fit on top of the battery.

Edited June 15, 2015 by machoman1337

[hybridbear]

Yes, what the Fusion offers in terms of technology is very impressive and it's one of the things that's really appealing to me.

 

Regarding going for the Energi version, I've considered it but my commute is a too long (70 miles roundtrip) to make it worth it. Hybrids would be the best option for me.

 

I'd love to have a big trunk (My '07 Sentra has a humongous trunk) but I know I need to compromise because of the battery location. The trunk of the Honda is tiny. The one in the Toyota is much better and I've yet to see the trunk of the Fusion. I hope it compares well with the Camry's.

You would still use less gas in the Energi. I did a 120 mile trip today for work and I only used 1.94 gallons of gas. In the Fusion Hybrid I would have used 2.6-3.0 gallons. On a 70 mile round trip commute you'll probably use about 1.75 gallons of gas in a FFH but only 1.0-1.1 in an Energi each day. Electricity usually costs about 1/4 of what gasoline costs on a per mile basis for our Fusion Energi.

[CCalvinN]

Fusion is indeed a looker. I do also like Accord's serious look and its LED headlights.

 

 

Ahh... see that's why I always want to put 'eye of the beholder' in those statements as I personally dislike Accord's serious look. I DO wish the Fusion had some sort of LED headlight or at least DRL. That being said, the LED tail lights on the Fusion is a nice touch, especially in the titanium trim with the cat's eye.

 

 

...

One thing to note is that you can get MFT without getting the navigation system. I rarely touch the MFT screen except to actually key in a destination - there are dedicated buttons for most other functions and the steering wheel controls handle the phone system exceptionally well. So if you opt out of getting nav, or you intend to just use a phone or portable GPS whether you get nav or not, you won't really experience any frustration with MFT as you won't be spending a lot of time tapping away at its screen.

...

 

 

A couple things that I'm constantly touching the screen for is the cooled/heated seats and heated steering wheel. So far as I know there are no physical button's for those features.

 

I also used to be finicky about the HVAC system. Sometimes I wanted the air to blow on my feet, sometimes a combo between my feet and my face, other times I'd want it on defrost and my face... those controls are also only available on the screen. Since I've gotten the Fusion I've grown accustomed to the 'Auto' climate control system, as it does a good enough job of deciding where to blow the air from. When I need the defrost feature there is a physical button for that.

[raadsel]

Just for comparison, if you are still looking in a couple of weeks, I'd also compare the 2016 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid. It will have the best navigation/infotainment system on any of the cars, with the pinch to zoom, buffering of XM stations, but most of all it has Android Auto and should, likely in the next month, have Apple Carplay. It will have most of the options available as the Fusion and have a slightly larger trunk (including fold down rear seats). The big difference, that you will either like or not, is that it has a 6-speed Auto transmission as opposed to a CVT. Of course, it has the long Hyundai standard warranty and includes a lifetime warranty on the hybrid battery.

 

Since you mentioned trunk space, you might also look at the Ford C-Max hybrid -- a car that most people don't seem to be aware of and is more like a mini SUV. It won't have things like Lane Keep or Adaptive Cruise but does have the park assist and other features. It has the same powertrain as the Fusion Hybrid and, being built on the Focus frame, is a nice driving car.

 

In my case, it came down to the Fusion or the C-Max, I chose the C-Max because of the extra height (easier entry/exit) and storage space. The Fusion would be a great choice and I'd pick it over the Camry or Accord -- the Camry just doesn't drive as nicely and the Accord has the crazy dual infotainment system. I agree with you, though, that you need to look closely at all the options and find the one that works best for you.

[machoman1337]

 

A couple things that I'm constantly touching the screen for is the cooled/heated seats and heated steering wheel. So far as I know there are no physical button's for those features.

 

I also used to be finicky about the HVAC system. Sometimes I wanted the air to blow on my feet, sometimes a combo between my feet and my face, other times I'd want it on defrost and my face... those controls are also only available on the screen. Since I've gotten the Fusion I've grown accustomed to the 'Auto' climate control system, as it does a good enough job of deciding where to blow the air from. When I need the defrost feature there is a physical button for that.

 

I was going to point out that there are physical controls for the heated seats and HVAC at least... then I realized you have a Titanium. Kinda dumb of Ford to allow SE but not Titanium owners to control that feature outside of MFT.

[lolder]

The first year 2011 HSHs had a lot of problems with the drive train. It is a tricky system with high speed electric clutches that must be timed perfectly. It can only accelerate from a stop in EV and then the clutch to the ICE must only engage when both the motor-transmission and ICE are at the same speed. It's a recipe for long term problems, IMHO.

[Cobra348]

 

I was going to point out that there are physical controls for the heated seats and HVAC at least... then I realized you have a Titanium. Kinda dumb of Ford to allow SE but not Titanium owners to control that feature outside of MFT.

Yeah - I too have to use MFT for the controls ... and the heated wheel. What I REALLY dislike is that I set the speakers for Surround and they pop back to Stereo! Not right away and in fact I can go for days without it happening. I can stop for something and get back in the car ... >BAM< stereo instead of surround it was on just moments ago. <sigh>

Edited June 22, 2015 by Cobra348

[raadsel]

The first year 2011 HSHs had a lot of problems with the drive train. It is a tricky system with high speed electric clutches that must be timed perfectly. It can only accelerate from a stop in EV and then the clutch to the ICE must only engage when both the motor-transmission and ICE are at the same speed. It's a recipe for long term problems, IMHO.

 

It may be tricky, but to this point Hyundai seems to be doing it well. Hyundai fixed most of the initial issues with the 2011 Hybrids through recalls (similar to Ford and the 2013 Fusion Hybrid/C-Max), and the improvements made to the power train in 2013 helped further. For 2013 models, the HSH is given a better reliability rating than the Fusion. At this point, I think it will be interesting to see how both cars fare over a decade or more -- though short term it does seem that there are some issues with the Fusion Hybrid/C-Max transmissions, at least in many of the 2013 models.

 

It may be that the real issue, in both cars, is the mechanical oil pump, which needs the ICE operating to function. I find it interesting that Hyundai is putting an electric oil pump in their 2016 Hybrid, to keep the transmission lubricated while in EV mode.

 

Having said that, there are reasons why I'm driving a Ford and not a Hyundai.

[hybridbear]

Yeah - I too have to use MFT for the controls ... and the heated wheel. What I REALLY dislike is that I set the speakers for Surround and they pop back to Stereo! Not right away and in fact I can go for days without it happening. I can stop for something and get back in the car ... >BAM< stereo instead of surround it was on just moments ago. <sigh>

This has been discussed here. I'm not sure if you've seen that thread or not.

[Cobra348]

This has been discussed here. I'm not sure if you've seen that thread or not.

Yup - the steps ptek documented are exactly reproducable in my '15. When I get a chance I'll run thru a bluetooth/sync call and see if it screws it up then.

 

FordIVTeam: The thread linked in hybridbears note here has all the data needed for SCR (Software Change Request). If all you need are the car/owner details I'll be more than happy to put my hat in the ring! I retired from 40 years in IT as programmer, database admin, project lead, shift supervisor and more. I know this is something that needs fixing in the code. Dealers cannot help us until there is a patch/update for MFT itself that incorporates the change.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Cobra348