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New Fusion Hybrid vs Fusion Energi

Hybrid Vr Energi

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26 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   RogerHan

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 09:47 AM

New to the forum and I just bought a Ford Fusion Titanium Hybrid,.   Love it so much my wife wants one. I thought why not check into the Energi.  My Hybrid gets 40 to 42 mpg on average.  I was looking at the stats for the Energi of 80 but when looking at the Ford site and the EPA I am not sure if it is the car for us.  40 city 36 highway 38 combined .  Where does the 80 mpg come in at if those EPA numbers are true.  I am thinking that if you drive short miles (under 19)  and are charged then maybe you can get those 80 mpg.  But what if I drive a Energi like I do my Hybrid in town with stops and hills for about 28 to 40 a day. will the mileage be any better.

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this topic bt I hope to have some advise from those who know  more about this than I do. 









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#2 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 11:14 AM

The 80 is MPGe.  I have no idea what the MPG is for my Energi because I usually only burn gas in the winter time.  I last bought gas in June of 2014 and I still have 1/3 of a tank left.  I have to add StaBil to the gas because it is in the tank for a long time.  Also I have PV solar panels on the roof of my house so it costs nothing to charge the battery.

 

Click the "Fusion Energi Forum" link at the top of this page to see discussions about the Energi from every possible viewpoint.


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#3 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 12:21 PM

New to the forum and I just bought a Ford Fusion Titanium Hybrid,.   Love it so much my wife wants one. I thought why not check into the Energi.  My Hybrid gets 40 to 42 mpg on average.  I was looking at the stats for the Energi of 80 but when looking at the Ford site and the EPA I am not sure if it is the car for us.  40 city 36 highway 38 combined .  Where does the 80 mpg come in at if those EPA numbers are true.  I am thinking that if you drive short miles (under 19)  and are charged then maybe you can get those 80 mpg.  But what if I drive a Energi like I do my Hybrid in town with stops and hills for about 28 to 40 a day. will the mileage be any better.

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this topic bt I hope to have some advise from those who know  more about this than I do. 

You would definitely use less gas with an Energi. For example, a 40 mile trip in your hybrid would use approximately 1 gallon of gas. But that same 40 mile trip in an Energi would only use about 1/2 gallon of gas because you'd be able to go about 20 miles on the HVB charge from the wall. We recently did a 600 mile weekend away road trip in our Energi and only used 7.5 gallons of gas because of being able to do lots of charging along the trip.


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#4 OFFLINE   machoman1337

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 01:23 PM

The Energi's mileage will be better if you have frequent opportunities to charge the battery from the mains, like in your garage and/or your workplace. If not, you'll end up driving it like a normal hybrid and it might actually have worse mileage because of the extra weight.


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#5 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 03:54 PM

The Energi's mileage will be better if you have frequent opportunities to charge the battery from the mains, like in your garage and/or your workplace. If not, you'll end up driving it like a normal hybrid and it might actually have worse mileage because of the extra weight.

We have never found that the Energi gets worse mileage. Even on long distance road trips we can get better MPG in the Energi by using the wall charged portion of the HVB to help mitigate the ICE warm up penalty by not engaging the ICE for the first time until on the highway. If you do any driving through the mountains the larger HVB of the Energi will allow you to store much more electricity than the hybrid which increases MPG.


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#6 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 04:22 PM

I had a 2010 hybrid for 4 years (4/2009 - 4/2013).  I have had a 2013 Energi since 4/2013.  There is no way I would ever go back to a hybrid.  The only step up from the Energi is a long range full electric.  My ideal car would be an Energi with the Tesla 85 kWh battery and access to Tesla's superchargers.


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#7 OFFLINE   storksb

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 05:56 PM

RogerHan, what would the typical journey be for your wife's car? Short trips, long commute etc. If short trips or commute then the Energi would b ideal. Had my FFE for 2 months now and wouldn't go back to the FFH. When having to run on gas get 40 - 42 mpg though most trips i do purely on electrons.


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#8 OFFLINE   rjent

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 07:57 PM

I am getting across the board far better mileage (you can call it MPGe or MPG or whatever you want) than my '13 FFH.  Far better.  i would never go back to a straight Hybrid.  I think the '16 FFE we just bought will be actually better on long runs (we do at least two a year) than the FFH.

 

We drive it easy (never over 63 on the Interstates (a few exceptions but very rare), as much secondary highways as possible, and we work hard at keeping our driving scores high).  It is not hard to do, and is actually fun, adds spice to driving in general!

 

JMHO  :)


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#9 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 10:35 PM

I think the '16 FFE we just bought will be actually better on long runs (we do at least two a year) than the FFH.

 

Even after you have exhausted your EV range?  I'm curious why you think that given that the EPA highway number for the FFE is 5 MPG less than the FFH?  It would be very interesting to have a side by side MPG face off on a 500 mile trip.  I'm putting my money on the FFH given its lighter weight, taller axle ratio and the EPA numbers.



#10 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 06:49 AM

 

Even after you have exhausted your EV range?  I'm curious why you think that given that the EPA highway number for the FFE is 5 MPG less than the FFH?  It would be very interesting to have a side by side MPG face off on a 500 mile trip.  I'm putting my money on the FFH given its lighter weight, taller axle ratio and the EPA numbers.

Remember the 47/47/47 fiasco for the C-Max Hybrid? Ford used the FFH numbers for the C-Max Hybrid due to the now well-known EPA loophole. For the Energi models, Ford only tested the C-Max Energi, following that same loophole since it was expected to sell better than the Fusion Energi. Thus, you want to compare the EPA numbers between the C-Max Energi & C-Max Hybrid to get a feel for the difference caused by the Energi powertrain. 


Edited by hybridbear, 14 June 2015 - 06:49 AM.

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#11 OFFLINE   rjent

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 09:06 AM

 

Even after you have exhausted your EV range?  I'm curious why you think that given that the EPA highway number for the FFE is 5 MPG less than the FFH?  It would be very interesting to have a side by side MPG face off on a 500 mile trip.  I'm putting my money on the FFH given its lighter weight, taller axle ratio and the EPA numbers.

When we brought our FFE home, our charger did not work (bad cord).  We drove it for 3 weeks without being able to charge.  We on the average got well over the FFH's effeciency (mostly over 50). Bringing it home (160 miles) with no charge, we achieved 57 MPG (that is MPG and not MPGe because it was not charged up).  There was no tailwind, no headwind, just perfect driving conditions in late evening.  You have to remember this is a new 16 and not "broken" in.  Our FFH didn't really start to work the best until 10K miles.  The hybrid part in the Energi is much more "aggressive" in both charging and discharging.  

 

The only way we could get a charge on the battery, at first, was to go over (and back) a local mountain pass and let the car charge during decent both ways.  After putting 15 miles of charge were we able to even feel the joy of EV driving.  Taking it back to the dealership to get the cord replaced, we again did over 50 without EV. and then got over 60 on the way back, pushing a headwind and with a full charge, and have been enjoying 50+ MPG since.  

 

I think Ford underrated the FFE because of being gun shy over the 47/47/47.  I think these cars are now "rated" to wow you.  I think Ford knows they will far exceed the EPA numbers with this car and it was done on purpose.

 

Anyway, JMHO  :)

 

I am one happy camper!   :love_shower:


Edited by rjent, 14 June 2015 - 09:11 AM.

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#12 OFFLINE   jeff_h

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 09:51 AM

Here's one that I've posted on the forum before, from a road trip last year on I-81 from VA to TN where there are a lot of rolling hills, but definitely not to the extent of rjent's hills in NM.  Anyway, in my experience I've found the 2013 Energi to get about 5% lower MPG than the 2013 FFH did, but the below is from a trip in the Energi and it was definitely no slouch on MPG -- speed limit was 65 along most of that so I had the cruise set on 68 and below were the results. The first trip was 173 miles (shown at bottom) and that was helped by having a full HVB charge to start, but the rest of it was all hybrid mode.

 

MPG_20140612_zpsf787c6e1.jpg


Edited by jeff_h, 14 June 2015 - 09:52 AM.

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2013 Fusion Titanium Energi Deep Impact Blue

 

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#13 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 11:51 AM

Remember the 47/47/47 fiasco for the C-Max Hybrid? Ford used the FFH numbers for the C-Max Hybrid due to the now well-known EPA loophole. For the Energi models, Ford only tested the C-Max Energi, following that same loophole since it was expected to sell better than the Fusion Energi. Thus, you want to compare the EPA numbers between the C-Max Energi & C-Max Hybrid to get a feel for the difference caused by the Energi powertrain. 

HB, not sure if I am following what you are saying.  The EPA numbers I referenced are the latest EPA numbers and if I remember correctly Ford revised them down for both the FFH and the FFE.  The FFE highway EPA number is now (after revisions) 5 less than the FFH. While they may not be accurate given different driving styles the relative difference between the two is probably reasonably accurate.

 

The thing I have a hard time understanding is how the FFE could do better on the highway (given identical driving conditions) after the FFE has drained the HVB that was charged from the grid. From that point forward both cars are getting 100% of their power from burning gasoline. 100% of the power going into the FFH's HVB and the FFE's HVB is coming from burning gasoline. There is no "free" energy going into the HVBs for either car.  Given the greater weight and lower axle ratio the FFE is at a disadvantage. I do understand that on a long downhill grade the FFE will have an advantage of being able to recapture a greater percentage of the energy that was expended (from burning gasoline) when climbing the hill/mountain.  But on relatively flat terrain (or modest hills) the FFE seems like it will be at a disadvantage compared to the FFH.

 

Interesting conversation.



#14 OFFLINE   rjent

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 01:21 PM

HB, not sure if I am following what you are saying.  The EPA numbers I referenced are the latest EPA numbers and if I remember correctly Ford revised them down for both the FFH and the FFE.  The FFE highway EPA number is now (after revisions) 5 less than the FFH. While they may not be accurate given different driving styles the relative difference between the two is probably reasonably accurate.

 

The thing I have a hard time understanding is how the FFE could do better on the highway (given identical driving conditions) after the FFE has drained the HVB that was charged from the grid. From that point forward both cars are getting 100% of their power from burning gasoline. 100% of the power going into the FFH's HVB and the FFE's HVB is coming from burning gasoline. There is no "free" energy going into the HVBs for either car.  Given the greater weight and lower axle ratio the FFE is at a disadvantage. I do understand that on a long downhill grade the FFE will have an advantage of being able to recapture a greater percentage of the energy that was expended (from burning gasoline) when climbing the hill/mountain.  But on relatively flat terrain (or modest hills) the FFE seems like it will be at a disadvantage compared to the FFH.

 

Interesting conversation.

 

I am convinced that the Energi can recover much much more energy on decel and braking because it can throw so much more current at the larger battery pack.

 

When you brake for a stop light/sign you feel a much more aggressive deceleration without using the brake pedal at all.  i think it is where a lot of the efficiency comes from.  It has been dissucssed that the most efficient mode is the engine running and charging the batteries.  My theory is that again, the battery pack can accept more current, therefor store more energy quicker, and thus over all efficiency is higher.  I know that the engine starts more often (in hybrid mode) for less time, and the car will go EV for longer periods of time (again in hybrid mode).

 

Example of an MPGe, but do the math, you only get about 1/2 gallon of gas equivilent in the Energi batter pack.  These numbers don't add up using just a "free" half gallon .....  ;) This is a round trip on reletively flat ground with both Interstate (63 MPH ecocruise) and 2 lane federal highways (55 MPH ecocruise).

 

first%20trip%20to%20LC%20in%20BeeBee%20c


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#15 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 01:55 PM

HB, not sure if I am following what you are saying.  The EPA numbers I referenced are the latest EPA numbers and if I remember correctly Ford revised them down for both the FFH and the FFE.  The FFE highway EPA number is now (after revisions) 5 less than the FFH. While they may not be accurate given different driving styles the relative difference between the two is probably reasonably accurate.

 

The thing I have a hard time understanding is how the FFE could do better on the highway (given identical driving conditions) after the FFE has drained the HVB that was charged from the grid. From that point forward both cars are getting 100% of their power from burning gasoline. 100% of the power going into the FFH's HVB and the FFE's HVB is coming from burning gasoline. There is no "free" energy going into the HVBs for either car.  Given the greater weight and lower axle ratio the FFE is at a disadvantage. I do understand that on a long downhill grade the FFE will have an advantage of being able to recapture a greater percentage of the energy that was expended (from burning gasoline) when climbing the hill/mountain.  But on relatively flat terrain (or modest hills) the FFE seems like it will be at a disadvantage compared to the FFH.

 

Interesting conversation.

Originally the C-Max Hybrid was rated at 47/47/47 like the FFH because Ford never tested the C-Max. They tested the FFH and applied its numbers to the C-Max through a loophole in the EPA ratings which allows an automaker to share ratings across vehicles if they are in the same weight class with the same powertrain. For the Energi models Ford only tested the C-Max Energi and then they used the C-Max Energi numbers for the Fusion Energi. The reason is because the highest sales variant must be tested and Ford estimated that the FFH would sell better than the C-Max Hybrid and that the C-Max Energi would sell better than the FFE. When Ford had to adjust the ratings they were forced to test the C-Max Hybrid separately & use the actual results for its rating. However, Ford never tested the FFE separately, but has continued to apply the C-Max Energi numbers to the FFE. Thus the FFE under promises & over delivers.

 

The C-Max Hybrid is rated at 42/37/40. The C-Max Energi/Fusion Energi are rated at 40/36/38. This alone makes it clear than the C-Max Energi testing was used for the revised Fusion Energi numbers. The added weight of the HVB has more impact on city MPG with the ICE running than on highway mileage with the ICE running since the excess weight means more energy is required to start from a stop. When traveling at highway speeds the weight of the vehicle is a small part of the total friction which is a small part of the total energy required.

 

Edit: here is the link that shows the detailed Energi MPG ratings before & after the revision: http://insideevs.com...s-c-max-fusion/

 

I am convinced that the Energi can recover much much more energy on decel and braking because it can throw so much more current at the larger battery pack.

Actually both the FFH & FFE have a charge limit of 35 kW to the HVB. The Energi can discharge up to a rate of about 68 kW from the pack, the FFH is limited to a 35 kW max discharge rate.


Edited by hybridbear, 14 June 2015 - 01:56 PM.

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#16 OFFLINE   rjent

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 02:14 PM

 

 

Actually both the FFH & FFE have a charge limit of 35 kW to the HVB. The Energi can discharge up to a rate of about 68 kW from the pack, the FFH is limited to a 35 kW max dischar ge rate.

By the book, that may be true, but, like I said, since I have had experience in both cars now, the "perception" is that the Energi has a dramatically different reaction to deceleration and braking.  It is more robust, and it seems to put more charge into the "hybrid" portion of the battery than the FFH did. It may be the different final drive ratio, but I think the numbers prove that the car is more efficient, at least so far in my experience ...  :thumbsup:


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#17 OFFLINE   Automate

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 02:29 PM

By the book, that may be true, but, like I said, since I have had experience in both cars now, the "perception" is that the Energi has a dramatically different reaction to deceleration and braking.  It is more robust, and it seems to put more charge into the "hybrid" portion of the battery than the FFH did. It may be the different final drive ratio, but I think the numbers prove that the car is more efficient, at least so far in my experience ...  :thumbsup:

Not sure what you mean by "robust".  It is true that if you stop a FFH and a FFE from the same speed using only regen braking you will recover more energy in the FFE because it is a heavier vehicle. But this is only because you used more energy to  get the FFE up to speed in the first place, again because it's a heavier vehicle.  And because regen is not 100% efficient you are loosing energy overall.


Edited by Automate, 14 June 2015 - 02:32 PM.

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#18 OFFLINE   rjent

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 03:42 PM

Not sure what you mean by "robust".  It is true that if you stop a FFH and a FFE from the same speed using only regen braking you will recover more energy in the FFE because it is a heavier vehicle. But this is only because you used more energy to  get the FFE up to speed in the first place, again because it's a heavier vehicle.  And because regen is not 100% efficient you are loosing energy overall.

By robust I mean you can feel it slowing down more aggressively.  

 

ro·bust
rōˈbəst,ˈrōˌbəst/
adjective
 
  1. strong and healthy; vigorous.
    "the Caplans are a robust, healthy lot"

Let's face it, if we put our Mother In Law (just joking :) ) in the back set in a hybrid, we would add the same weight of the batteries in the Energi.  I am feeling a much more vigorous deceleration rate and I am watching the hybrid engine/battery process in hybrid mode simply act differently (better) than the '13 HyTi .... and my numbers are proving it to be true as my mileage is higher when in hybrid mode.  Hell, maybe they have done something new in the '16???? :D



#19 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 04:00 PM

It is true that if you stop a FFH and a FFE from the same speed using only regen braking you will recover more energy in the FFE because it is a heavier vehicle. But this is only because you used more energy to  get the FFE up to speed in the first place, again because it's a heavier vehicle.  And because regen is not 100% efficient you are loosing energy overall.

This is true. But, the FFE can sometimes recover a larger percentage of the previously expended energy because of its larger HVB capacity. The FFH may reach max SOC and resort to friction braking while the FFE is still performing regen braking and charging its larger HVB. I also suspect that long downhill grades or deceleration resulting in lost opportunity for the FFH is relatively uncommon. Sure, it happens but it is not the norm.



#20 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 10:54 AM

  Hell, maybe they have done something new in the '16???? :D

 

 

Ding ding, this is the correct answer.  Ford has changed the decel rates in the 2016 to be more "robust".  Not enough people out there are able to get that 100% braking score because they start braking too late, so giving them a little more coasting decel means they will start braking at a lower speed and thus recover more energy.  Nothing has actually changed technically, its just that now coasting gives you the same decel/regen as a light drag on the brakes did in the 2015 and earlier.  It's all phsycological, if you were getting 100% brake scores in the 2013 you'd be getting the exact same amount of regen as a 100% score in the 2016.


Edited by Waldo, 15 June 2015 - 10:55 AM.

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